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  #21  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:03 PM
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Most guys who act creepy on public transportation will not escalate into violence, sexual or otherwise.

But since creepy guys aren't equipped with reliable labeling as to the degree of their creepiness, that possibility cannot be rejected out hand.
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  #22  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:06 PM
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Exactly.

And actually, creepiness isn't necessarily sexual. I had a weird encounter with a man who followed me off and on public transit because I had given change to a beggar. He followed me around shouting about how the beggar hadn't asked any black people for money and "JUST HER!!!" Something about this offended him. "What, don't black people have any money?" Apparently, the beggar shouldn't have asked me and I should have said I didn't have any...

He never sat down. He paced the subway car; it was all very unnerving.
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  #23  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:11 PM
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Sometimes telling a creeper to go away actually gets them to go away.

Sometimes it really, really doesn't.
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  #24  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Most guys who act creepy on public transportation will not escalate into violence, sexual or otherwise.

But since creepy guys aren't equipped with reliable labeling as to the degree of their creepiness, that possibility cannot be rejected out hand.
That's a mighty leap of logic, though, seeing as the second part of the statement could apply to anyone at all. Yes, the creepy guy hitting on you might be a rapist, or a mugger, or worse ... but so could the fat chick sitting down the car a bit, or dude with the grocery bags, or anyone else. If there was some sort of proven correlation I'd be all for it, but right now it just feels like slapping a very dangerous label on someone who was, at most, somewhere between annoying, rude, and clueless. ETA: Again, I'm all for teaching people to take "No" for an answer in any social situation - not just sexual advances, but the crazy old man who wants Jesus to be your savior, or the over talkative young lady who wants to tell you her life story for a few blocks - means "no, full stop". I'm also for helping women feel strong enough to give a firm "No, I'm reading right now" instead of trying to politely bat their harasser away.
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  #25  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:41 PM
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The person being creepy on the train has demonstrated that he does not respect me or my boundaries. The other people you mention have not, so far, done so.
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  #26  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
That's a mighty leap of logic, though, seeing as the second part of the statement could apply to anyone at all. Yes, the creepy guy hitting on you might be a rapist, or a mugger, or worse ... but so could the fat chick sitting down the car a bit, or dude with the grocery bags, or anyone else.
Statistically, that's just not true.

ET (Also) A: Some more examples of this can be found here.

Quote:
Streetsblog writer Sahra Sulaiman pointed us in the direction of a post that she wrote about being harassed on public transportation. She wrote about one experience on the Blue Line when she rejected a man who repeatedly asked her to sit next to him. He responded by giving a blow-by-blow description of her appearance—and instead of saying something or even just ignoring the man, the other passengers responded by checking her out. She said that because of previous sexual harassment that she'd dealt with, she wasn't fazed—until he tried to take her suitcase as she left the train:
“Come on, amiga!” he said, pulling at my things. “Let’s go!”
Now he’d really crossed the line. I gave him a shove and a few choice words.
People looked at me like I was the aggressive weirdo.
I sighed.
“What ever happened to ‘see something, say something’?” I muttered to myself as passengers crushed by me, eager to get off the train.
“Shouldn’t this qualify as ‘something’?”

Last edited by Avril; 14 July 2013 at 09:47 PM.
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  #27  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The person being creepy on the train has demonstrated that he does not respect me or my boundaries. The other people you mention have not, so far, done so.
If someone says "Jesus will save you!" and I say "I'm sure he will, but I'm reading right now, and I don't want to talk about it" that's the exact same level of disrespect (assuming they continue to preach) as if that same person said "Hey, baby, what's a nice gal like you doing all alone on a bus like this?" and I replied "Reading, alone, and I don't want to talk to anyone right now. Bye." (assuming they continue to make advances). Either way it's someone invading my personal space, annoying the heck out of me, and refusing to accept my answer at face value.

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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
Statistically, that's just not true.
Could you pull a cite for this? While I agree that in general, someone who fails to respect another person's requests to go away might also not respect other things or choices that person might say, I'm not finding anything that flat-out says "Creepy guys who won't go away are way more likely to assault women".
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  #28  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:51 PM
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More likely than the "fat chick sitting down the car a bit"? You seriously need a cite for men being more likely to commit sexual assault than women?
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  #29  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
More likely than the "fat chick sitting down the car a bit"? You seriously need a cite for men being more likely to commit sexual assault than women?
So now we're talking about all men everywhere and not just men who are creepy on the bus? Could you hold those goal posts still a moment while I jog on over, I'm likely to be the overweight lady sitting further down the bus.
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  #30  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:53 PM
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The boundaries the creeper is ignoring are sexual in nature, which makes his ignoring them more sinister to me than the behavior of the proselytizer.

You're free to interpret such situations differently, of course. But that doesn't mean Avril or Aimee or I are wrong to interpret them the way we do. We each have to listen to our own gut. You can't expect me to listen to yours.

ETA: Well, you could expect it, I suppose. But it isn't going to happen. :-) And I'm not going to tell you to listen to mine.
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  #31  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:56 PM
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I'm not sure where I'd go for a specific citation about creepy bus behavior. That's a goalpost that's hard to utilize. But you were the one who said he was as suspect as the woman.
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  #32  
Old 14 July 2013, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The boundaries the creeper is ignoring are sexual in nature, which makes his ignoring them more sinister to me than the behavior of the proselytizer.

You're free to interpret such situations differently, of course. But that doesn't mean Avril or Aimee or I are wrong to interpret them the way we do. We each have to listen to our own gut. You can't expect me to listen to yours.
Avril specifically stated that it wasn't necessarily about the sexual nature of the creeper-ness, so I continued to use with a real-life example I often faced when taking a specific bus route home (in a larger city, to boot). Either the sexual nature adds another layer to the uncomfortable situation (which I'm not denying might be the case), or all annoying people who violate your personal space and fail to respect you are on the same level (which I can also understand). I'm not even suggesting that you should ignore your instincts: if something is giving you a bad feeling about anyone (regardless of gender or appearance) you should utilize that information and get yourself to a safe situation when possible. I'm just saying that if we're going to start making very dangerous assumptions, such as "Creepy guy on the bus is much more likely to sexually assault, or otherwise harm, me than anyone else on the bus" we should have some sort of proof on our side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avril View Post
I'm not sure where I'd go for a specific citation about creepy bus behavior. That's a goalpost that's hard to utilize. But you were the one who said he was as suspect as the woman.
Then let's remove that reference to the female passenger. I can happily come up with a dozen other stereotypes for men if it makes it easier to back up your assertion that men who are creepier on public transit are more likely to harm someone than any other man on public transit.
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  #33  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
That's a mighty leap of logic, though, seeing as the second part of the statement could apply to anyone at all. Yes, the creepy guy hitting on you might be a rapist, or a mugger, or worse ... but so could the fat chick sitting down the car a bit, or dude with the grocery bags, or anyone else.
Even if I accepted that everyone on the train is a potential rapist, why wouldn't I be more threatened by the potential rapist who is currently actively ignoring my boundaries in order to make creepy, sexualized comments to me?
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  #34  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:02 PM
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How do you know you were in a larger city than I was? I didn't say where I was when it happened.

The assumption is not "creepy guy on the bus is much more likely to ... harm." It is, "creepy guy on the bus (train, actually, in my case) is doing things that are already outside the boundaries of acceptable behavior, so we have reason to suspect he may do other things outside the bounds of acceptable behavior." That does not mean that the other guy, the guy with the bags, won't follow you and break into your apartment and do horrible things. There are things we cannot know.
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  #35  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
I'm just saying that if we're going to start making very dangerous assumptions, such as "Creepy guy on the bus is much more likely to sexually assault, or otherwise harm, me than anyone else on the bus" we should have some sort of proof on our side.
Why? I'm not asking that he be arrested or tried. How is my assumption dangerous? How can it harm anyone?
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  #36  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Even if I accepted that everyone on the train is a potential rapist, why wouldn't I be more threatened by the potential rapist who is currently actively ignoring my boundaries in order to make creepy, sexualized comments to me?
While everyone is a potential rapist (and murderer, and jaywalker) my point was the exact opposite: we cannot assume that everyone around us, at every moment, is going to leap out and attack our bodies or belongings. That's not a safe or healthy way to live. If all it takes to go from "Just some guy on the train" to "I feel this person is going to cause me great bodily harm" in your mind is a healthy dose of being a clueless jerk, that seems like leaping at shadows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avril View Post
How do you know you were in a larger city than I was? I didn't say where I was when it happened.
I was in a larger city than I am in now. I preemptively added before someone might point out that Eau Claire, Wisconsin is not known for violent crimes on public transportation. Wilmington, Delaware, a bit more so.

ETA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
Why? I'm not asking that he be arrested or tried. How is my assumption dangerous? How can it harm anyone?
Living in a constant state of fear helps no one, least of all women who want to have the privilege of living a normal life in which they do feel the need to be constantly terrified of people. I don't think that's a healthy state for anyone to live in, and if that's really what's going on, I feel that greater aspects of society need to change.
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  #37  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:12 PM
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That's not what's going on. What's going on is sexual harassment that is dependent upon a society that accepts it, and your comments seem to play into that. Where is Ryda when you need her?

Meanwhile, take a look at this article. It explains why the creepy guy on the train really is a societal problem.
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  #38  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
That's not what's going on. What's going on is sexual harassment that is dependent upon a society that accepts it, and your comments seem to play into that.
How on earth am I coming off as supporting sexual harassment? Seriously? I've said repeatedly that it is wrong to get into someone's personal space and then disrespect their denial of wanting to speak with you. I've said that doing so makes the person wrong on several social levels, including the elemental of unwanted sexual advancement. I've also said that women should feel safe and strong enough on their own to give these people a firm "I do not want to speak with you, please leave me alone" and have it accepted. Just because I don't feel that every unwanted verbal intrusion automatically drops the person into the "Very likely to assault me" category doesn't mean I condone their actions. I've spent several whole posts saying that I feel what they did was wrong.
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  #39  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
If someone says "Jesus will save you!" and I say "I'm sure he will, but I'm reading right now, and I don't want to talk about it" that's the exact same level of disrespect (assuming they continue to preach) as if that same person said "Hey, baby, what's a nice gal like you doing all alone on a bus like this?" and I replied "Reading, alone, and I don't want to talk to anyone right now. Bye." (assuming they continue to make advances). Either way it's someone invading my personal space, annoying the heck out of me, and refusing to accept my answer at face value.
And, either way, if you can't get the person to leave you alone, and especially if the person is becoming abusive to you, I don't see why other people on the bus should all have to look the other way and pretend it isn't happening.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
Living in a constant state of fear helps no one, least of all women who want to have the privilege of living a normal life in which they do feel the need to be constantly terrified of people. I don't think that's a healthy state for anyone to live in, and if that's really what's going on, I feel that greater aspects of society need to change.
1) One doesn't have to be living in a constant state of terror to be ticked off by somebody who won't leave you alone. And one doesn't have to be living in a constant state of terror to find it potentially threatening if the person who won't leave you alone continues to bother you after you've made it clear you want to be left alone.

2) Yes, greater aspects of society need to change. I don't think we're going to change them if only the person being directly impacted at the moment is allowed to address problems.
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  #40  
Old 14 July 2013, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kallah View Post
I've also said that women should feel safe and strong enough on their own to give these people a firm "I do not want to speak with you, please leave me alone" and have it accepted.
Why on earth do you think that that always works?

I really, really wish we were living on that planet.



(It doesn't always work for men either.)
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