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  #1  
Old 03 July 2013, 05:31 PM
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Icon81 US vs. world murder rates

Comment: The United States is 3rd in murders throughout the world! But, if
you remove Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC and New Orleans from the stats,
the US is 4th from the bottom for murders worldwide. Here's the kicker:
Those 4 cities have the toughest gun control laws in America... and are
run by Democrats..

Is this true?
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  #2  
Old 03 July 2013, 05:57 PM
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No. We're not even in the top 100, let alone #3.
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  #3  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
No. We're not even in the top 100, let alone #3.
Well, that could depend on absolute numbers v. proportionate numbers. Proportionate is more fair, and in that case, it would only be plausible if we are speaking of developed countries (which more and more is a fuzzy term)
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  #4  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:09 PM
Ellestar Ellestar is offline
 
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Hey, it's not like guns are completely portable and a person can buy a whole bunch of them in one area of the country and carry them to another area!

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Old 03 July 2013, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Well, that could depend on absolute numbers v. proportionate numbers. Proportionate is more fair, and in that case, it would only be plausible if we are speaking of developed countries (which more and more is a fuzzy term)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

I doubt any of the other developed countries comes in with a higher rate, let alone two of them.
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  #6  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Well, that could depend on absolute numbers v. proportionate numbers.
The homicide rate is proportional to population. Absolute numbers would be "number of homicides."
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  #7  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The homicide rate is proportional to population. Absolute numbers would be "number of homicides."
But the OP only refers to 'murders' without specifying absolute or rate.
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  #8  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellestar View Post
Hey, it's not like guns are completely portable and a person can buy a whole bunch of them in one area of the country and carry them to another area!

True, but it seems like the murder rates are generally substantially higher in jurisdictions that have stricter gun control than in the jurisdictions where a gun may be purchased and carried more readily by a qualifying individual. If mobility were the only issue, then the rates would be fairly uniform. The concentration of murders makes it appear that one of two things are true: the lack of lawful gun carriers gives rise to those who disregard the laws feeling more free to use guns without fear, or the population generally in the stricter areas is overall substantially more violent.
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  #9  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:39 PM
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Or possibly a high crime rate locally has led to the passage of gun control laws.
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  #10  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:47 PM
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The OP is worded too ambiguously, so it isn't clear whether it refers to the murder rate or number of murders, or whether it includes all murders or just ones involving firearms.
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  #11  
Old 03 July 2013, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Or possibly a high crime rate locally has led to the passage of gun control laws.
That was option 2 - violent crimes leading to anti-gun laws.
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  #12  
Old 03 July 2013, 07:42 PM
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Ah. I didn't get that from the way you phrased it at all.
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  #13  
Old 03 July 2013, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Ah. I didn't get that from the way you phrased it at all.
Well, I did not add that the jurisdictions selected gun control because of the violent crime. However, the point was to explain why it seems there is a correlation between violent crime and gun control laws.
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  #14  
Old 03 July 2013, 08:10 PM
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The problem in Chicago is that, although Chicago has strict gun control measures, much of the rest of the state, along with our neighbors Indiana and Wisconsin, do not have such strict laws. Indiana's seem to be the most lenient and the state in close proximity to Chicago's south side. So it's easy for criminals to being guns into the city.

The other side of the problem is that the laws regarding prosecution of illegal guns are pretty weak. You pretty much HAVE to murder someone before you get prosecuted.
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  #15  
Old 03 July 2013, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talk2sparky View Post
The other side of the problem is that the laws regarding prosecution of illegal guns are pretty weak. You pretty much HAVE to murder someone before you get prosecuted.
Really? Illinois does not prosecute people for using firearms (even just brandishing) in the commission of crimes? Around here it is either a separate crime or an aggravating factor that substantially raises the stakes.
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  #16  
Old 03 July 2013, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
it seems like the murder rates are generally substantially higher in jurisdictions that have stricter gun control than in the jurisdictions where a gun may be purchased and carried more readily by a qualifying individual.
It seems like? or it has been shown that?

In other words: have you studies? and do the studies compare otherwise similar jurisdictions?

And, not specifically to ATNM: is the USA really 4th from the bottom if those 4 areas are removed, but third if those areas are included, either by population or by total number of murders? I don't have time to keep hunting into this; but according to this site Dallas, which isn't listed, has a higher murder rate than Chicago, which is:

http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/com...2=dallas&s2=TX

and anybody who's interested could keep hunting up two-city comparisons there.

-- Since the OP claims "in the world", I doubt there are neat statistics. Are they including people killed in war zones but not according to the "rules" of declared wars, for instance?
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  #17  
Old 03 July 2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snopes View Post
The OP is worded too ambigiously, so it isn't clear whether it refers to the murder rate or number of murders, or whether it includes all murders or just ones involving firearms.
You beat me to it. Most of my original draft was trying to figure out what the OP is getting at. I have no idea what the OP meant but I'll assume he or she is talking about either rates or absolute numbers of murders and the gun comment control comment was a failed "gotcha" tacked to the end.

Looking at absolute numbers using the Wikipedia link Chloe posted the US comes in at 8th (not 3rd) at 14748 for 2010. The FBI has a table for 2010 that breaks the numbers down by state. I'll be generous to the OP and subtract Illinois (453), Michigan (558), D.C. (131), and Louisiana (437) from the US total.

If I've done my math right I get 13169. That would place the US at 13th place, just below China and nowhere near 4th from the bottom with countries like Iceland that reported just one murder.

Now, if I look at rates the US population in 2010 was 308,745,538 so with 13169 murders I get a murder rate of 4.27 per 100000. That moves the US down just 4 spots. Again, nowhere near third from the bottom.

I did try just looking at gun violence but I still couldn't numbers like those of the OP. Wikipedia has a page for global firearm death statistics. In absolute numbers the US comes in at 10th place. Removing the murders by firearm deaths for illinois (364), Michigan (413), D.C. (99), and Louisiana (351) would not change the US ranking significantly.

Brian
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  #18  
Old 03 July 2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The homicide rate is proportional to population. Absolute numbers would be "number of homicides."
No, a "rate" is a number per unit time, not a number relative to a population.

The Wiki page phrases it as "homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants", which is the minimum amount of information to define a reasonably useful number; # deaths per time period per number of people.
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  #19  
Old 03 July 2013, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
No, a "rate" is a number per unit time, not a number relative to a population.
Every definition of "homicide" or "crime rate" states that it's the number of homicides or crimes in a year relative to the population.
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  #20  
Old 04 July 2013, 06:11 AM
Jaime Vargas Jaime Vargas is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
You beat me to it. Most of my original draft was trying to figure out what the OP is getting at.
The OP is getting at "gun control BAD!"

You're welcome
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