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Old 23 May 2013, 02:17 PM
Sue Sue is offline
 
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Default Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...94L0V120130522
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Old 23 May 2013, 02:29 PM
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It's something, but I won't be impressed until the catholic church reconsiders their stance on homosexuality and makes a meaningful effort to do something about the pedophiles in their midst.
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Old 23 May 2013, 02:36 PM
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That does not seem at all unusual to me, as a representation of the lessons from Jesus. It is also fully consonant with Matthew 25, verses 31 - 46:
Quote:
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Not only is this saying that good works done for anyone in need is to do them for God, but it also calls attention to the doing, rather than the professing. The righteous did the right thing, regardless of 'doing it for God', and the evil use as an (unsuccessful) excuse that they would have done these things for Him, but they did not see Him in need. We are called to live our lives by love for our fellow man, no matter how unloveable they sometimes are, and those who do so are doing right, whatever they profess.
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Old 23 May 2013, 03:01 PM
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It's something, but I won't be impressed until the catholic church reconsiders their stance on homosexuality and makes a meaningful effort to do something about the pedophiles in their midst.
What's your issue with the church's stance on homosexuality? It's consistent with how heterosexuals are treated. It's ok to be gay but the non-reproductive sex is wrong. It's ok to be straight but non-reproductive sex is wrong.
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Old 23 May 2013, 04:20 PM
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It's something, but I won't be impressed until the catholic church reconsiders their stance on homosexuality and makes a meaningful effort to do something about the pedophiles in their midst.
Is this really the defining characteristic of the Catholic Church to most people? Or even to you?
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Old 23 May 2013, 04:23 PM
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What are all of those delusional Catholics who think that God prefers them going to do with that?
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Old 23 May 2013, 04:26 PM
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Gee, that's nice of him, but I don't need his approval, or that of his imaginary sky being, to continue to be a good person.

And yes, ASL, it is a defining thing. Not the, but a.
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Old 23 May 2013, 04:48 PM
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I'm not an expert, but according to catholicism, doesn't going into heaven require that you a) be baptised, and b) confess your sins to a minister ordained by the church?
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Old 23 May 2013, 04:55 PM
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And yes, ASL, it is a defining thing. Not the, but a.
I have some... concerns when it comes to the frequent associations made between the Catholic Church and pedophiles. On the one hand, it certainly is a legitimate scandal, specifically instances in which the hierarchy of the Church knew of issues with specific priests and failed to act appropriately. On the other hand, there is I think an undercurrent of anti-Catholic feeling (or a least anti-Catholicism is not uncommon in America) that I fear may have taken this legitimate scandal and co-opted it, ensuring it will endure in the national consciousness far longer than it might have if it had been associated with some other organization, to bolster pre-existing anti-Catholic sentiment.

Although the worldwide hierarchical nature of the Catholic Church may be somewhat unique (though some Protestant denominations also some kind of governing body, don't they?) and that particular aspect may be largely unique to the Catholic Church, is pedophilia really a unique or even more common vice amongst Catholic priests? I doubt it. I also doubt that the Catholic Church is the ONLY hierarchical organization that has dealt with reports of abuse in an equally poor fashion. I do, however, worry that the Catholic Church may be uniquely tainted because they're already "suspect" in many people's eyes just for being Catholic or "papists" if you will.
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Old 23 May 2013, 05:03 PM
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I have some... concerns when it comes to the frequent associations made between the Catholic Church and pedophiles. On the one hand, it certainly is a legitimate scandal
I have some concern with the frequency of pedophiles hiding in the church and the church covering it up.

And it is not a "scandal." The boss poking his secretary on company time is a "scandal," a married politician having an affair is a "scandal."

An international organization having a history of covering up the frequent occurrences of its officials preying on children, children to whom they have access as part of their jobs is a crime.

And if you can point to some examples of other organizations for which pedophilia has become such a common occurrence as to have become practically synonymous, I'd love to see them.
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Old 23 May 2013, 05:03 PM
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is pedophilia really a unique or even more common vice amongst Catholic priests? I doubt it.
There is a theory that the celibacy requirement fosters a higher rate of pedophilia:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130473
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Old 23 May 2013, 06:12 PM
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While there certainly may be some that use the scandal as a weapon because of their anti-Catholic stance, I think a lot of the furvor comes from the massive hypocrisy involved in this case. An organization that seems to spend a lot of time condeming consentual same-gender sex or working against condom use in countries with extremely high rates of STDs is going to face a lot more backlash than an organization which doesn't.

Also, officials in the Catholic Church who were found to have been actively supressing reports of abuse have faced little to no penalties for their actions. Compare that to Penn State, where nearly every higher official resigned or was removed.
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Old 23 May 2013, 06:13 PM
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As a catholic myself, I find myself concerned at the Church's lack of progress in dealing with the issue.

A few pedophiles here and there is one thing. Many pedophiles, in several countries (Canada, Ireland, Germany, US, at the least), who weremoved to different bishoprics instead of handed over to the authorities, memos from higher up stating that complaints about priests are internal matters and not to be reported, etc.

That is troubling and nothing I've yet seen shows that the hierarchy has taken a serious step in resolving this.

ETA: I also second what GenYus said.
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Old 23 May 2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by snopes View Post
There is a theory that the celibacy requirement fosters a higher rate of pedophilia:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130473
Another suggestion I have heard is that there are men who have pedophilic desires who choose the priesthood in an attempt to put sexual expression entirely out of their life. It probably has worked for some. There are lots of truly celibate priests, among whom are no doubt men who had felt all manner of sexual desires before they dedicated themselves. However, some people cannot hold these desires at bay, and if the priesthood has attracted men trying to deny their sexuality, then when they can no longer hold the desires back, then their position of trust and authority gives them all the opportunity they need. I have heard the RC Church has been trying to screen for those that cannot stick to celibacy, but it can't be perfect.
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Old 23 May 2013, 08:22 PM
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Another suggestion I have heard is that there are men who have pedophilic desires who choose the priesthood in an attempt to put sexual expression entirely out of their life.
I know I've read articles that some gay male Catholics turn to the priesthood for a similar reason: if it's theoretically OK to be gay as long as you don't actually have gay sex, why not take a job where celibacy is a requirement? This is troubling to some in the church, since it's one thing to accept merely being gay as not being sinful, and another to actually put gays in positions of authority in the church. (And of course some I'm sure make the erroneous assumption that gay priests are more likely to be pedophiles.)

One thing I'd be mildly curious about is how the church reacts to priests (and nuns, and monks) who violate their vows of celibacy with other consenting adults -- you don't hear about this so much, but obviously it must happen (and probably more often than pedophilia). While I'm sure it often goes undetected and unreported, some priests presumably get discovered, and others probably confess it to their superiors. While some voluntarily leave the priesthood, others presumably remain, or want to.

Anyhow. In general I'm liking this new pope more than the last one, probably more than the last two. However, until there is a reversal in the position that condoms may not be used even between married couples when one of them is HIV-positive, I will have some difficulty in not seeing the position as perpetuating at least one policy that is just plain evil in my view.
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Old 23 May 2013, 08:42 PM
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Ignoring the discussions about sex and the single priest, good works getting you to heaven versus only having to believe to get to heaven has been a difference between the Catholic Church and many Protestant Churches for hundreds of years. It was one of the things that Martin Luthor complained about (rich people could allegedly buy their way into heaven by doing the good work of donating money to the Church).
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Old 23 May 2013, 08:46 PM
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Now back to the more tittilating conversation about sex and the single priest: the reason for the Church simply transferring pedophiles from one Bishopric to another has to due with the theory of forgiveness. In the sacrement of confession, you are told to repent, go forth and sin no more. For some reason, the Church assumed that pedophiles would do this and sent them on their way. Of course, there is not a similar record of doing the same when the parish treasurer siphons off the collection.

Last edited by RichardM; 23 May 2013 at 09:10 PM. Reason: do, not due
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Old 23 May 2013, 08:56 PM
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For some reason, the Church assumed that pedophiles would due this and sent them on their way.
That is a very kind reading. I don't think they assumed that at all.

I think they wanted to sweep drama under the rug in order to maintain their control over the population and various governments.

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the Church is concerned with the actual welfare and well-being of their adherents. Individual MEMBERS of the Church, sure. But not the infrastructure.
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Old 23 May 2013, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Another suggestion I have heard is that there are men who have pedophilic desires who choose the priesthood in an attempt to put sexual expression entirely out of their life. It probably has worked for some. There are lots of truly celibate priests, among whom are no doubt men who had felt all manner of sexual desires before they dedicated themselves. However, some people cannot hold these desires at bay, and if the priesthood has attracted men trying to deny their sexuality, then when they can no longer hold the desires back, then their position of trust and authority gives them all the opportunity they need. I have heard the RC Church has been trying to screen for those that cannot stick to celibacy, but it can't be perfect.
I heard a cop say once that he's never surprised when a child molester is a priest (or other clergyperson), teacher, or something that will put them into unquestioned contact with children. His theory (whether shared or not, I don't know) is that child molesters will deliberately pick a profession that will give them easy access to their 'prey'.

Magdalene
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Old 24 May 2013, 02:15 AM
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Not everyone is picking on the Catholic Church exclusively. Dan Savage has been coming down equally hard on child rapists in other denominations via his youth pastor watch blog entries and his oft-repeated assertion that "if kids got raped at Denny's as often as they get raped at church, taking your kids to Denny's would be a crime." The problem does appear to be more systematically entrenched in the Catholic Church, although I don't think they're necessarily more hypocritical than a lot of other religious groups whose leaders have also been implicated.
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