Do Jews Belive in the Messiah?

[matches]

It is a deeply held aspect of Christianity that Jesus was the Messiah, and that the Jews of Isreal were waiting for the Messiah to come, based on numerous old testiment prophecies.

The only problem is that I have never found an old testimant prophecy that says "And a man will come, and will be called the Messiah, and will lead the Jewish People to Salvation " or anything of that nature. There are numerous texts that Christians interpret as prophecies, but I've always heard alternative interpretations from Jews on the subject.

Likewise, when I attend Temple with my wife (who is Jewish) I never hear the concept mentioned as if Jews were in fact waiting for a Messiah.

Granted that's a reconstructionist congreation, so it is perhaps not the best place to determine the general belifes of the modern or ancient Jewish people.

I know some Orthodox sects speak of the Messiah coming, but is this a common belife among Jews? Was it common during the 1st century CE, or is it something of a modern invention based on the Christian insistance on the Idea?

Any one got any thoughts on this one?

[hambubba]

The Old Testament is full of references to a "deliverer", and many prophesies are taken by both Jews and Christians to be promises of a deliverer or messiah.

Nowhere is it stated, though, exactly what the Messiah would do. It was assumed by Jewish scholars that he would be a type of warrior that would destroy the enemies of the Jews, and bring about an era of peace. Whether that belief is still present today, I don't know.

We had a poster named Chava on this board who was pretty sharp on current Judaism; the agreement was that yes, the Jews believe in messiah, but do not believe he has come yet.

The Christian version of the role of messiah is that described by Jesus himself, and other New Testament writings which interpret the Old Testament prophecies in respect to Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Dave]

The short answer is "yes." {ETA: To the question of whether there is a concept of Messiah in Judaism, but he has not come yet.} Read here for an explanation.

Also, check out Jews for Judaism. I include this one because this organisation was specifically founded in response to "Jews for Jesus" or Messianic Judaism. That organisation considers its members Jewish, but also believes that Jesus was the Messiah (I think.) So the information provided by Jews for Judaism is specifically aimed at explaining why Jesus was not the Messiah by traditional understanding.

One note, Maimmonedes was from the 1100's, but there is commentary about teh Messiah that predates him as well..

[Chloe]

But the "old Testament" is not the be-all and end-all of Jewish sacred texts. There are many many works and commentaries and traditions. And it is certainly possible to find messianic references in the Torah--after all, Christians have certainly done so.

Since your wife in Jewish and you've attended services, why are you asking here?

[Dr. Dave]

Originally Posted by Chloe

Since your wife in Jewish and you've attended services, why are you asking here?

Not to answer for matches, but I meant to add in my response that as a movement, Reconstructionist Judaism does not believe in the Messiah.

(Note that this is an oversimplification, because the whole concept of what does Reconstriuctionist Judaism believe is an issue for another thread.)

[Chloe]

I realise that, but surely Temple-going Jews of any stripe are the best resource here?

[Malruhn]

Point of contention (bordering on a pet peeve!):

The "Messiah" means, the "annointed one", and is the religiously recognized leader of the Jews. It actually doesn't have anything to do with the civil leadership of the nation/people. There have been many "Messiahs" over the centuries - but the Messiah that they are waiting on is the annointed leader of the nation that is ALSO the son of God. The guy named "Jeheshua" was the annointed leader of the nation... and a prophet... but not the son of God.

Sorry, on to other discussions.

[Dr. Dave]

Originally Posted by Chloe

I realise that, but surely Temple-going Jews of any stripe are the best resource here?

Not necessarily. Although there is a reasonably clear answer to the question, the concept of Messiah is not really central to Judaism in the way that it is to, say, Catholicism. It's not really talked about much outside the worship service (except of course in specific classes or amongst certain people.) And in the US, is you asked your "average Jew on the street," the first thing they (we) would think about would be how we don't believe in Jesus, how we contrast the majority religion. (IOW: Q: "Do you believe in the concept of Messiah?" A: "We don't believe in Jesus." Q: "That's not what I asked." A:"Oh, yeah, I think so. We belive in th Messiah, but not that it was Jesus, and I'm not really sure what form he is supposed to take.")

There is a dichotomy, though, because the Messiah is mentioned in the central prayers of the service, but them not much more is said about it.. If matches had said that he goes to a Conservative synogogue, I could tell him which prayers to look at, and I can think of several prayes and songs that include the word "Mashiach."

[matches]

Originally Posted by Chloe

I realise that, but surely Temple-going Jews of any stripe are the best resource here?

Since I am a Christian attending Jewish Services with my wife and Son, I have made it a point to ixnay the ristchay talk in temple. It's just something that in general is frowned upon.

My wife's Judeaism is mostly famlial, and she was never bat mitvahed so her ability to speak at length is a little limited. She was shocked to learn that reconstructionism doesn't belive in God as such, for example. So simply attending service does not necessarily imply great knowledge of the faith.

Likewise, I figured this was a relativly nutral envrionment inwhich a touchy subject could be raised, and as there are catholics, protestants, wiccans, atheists, etc. on the board I pressumed there would be at least a few Jews as well.

And finally, since I am most interested in the Legend aspect of this (that Christians whole hartedly belive the Messiah is central to jewish belife yet there is a lack of information on the Messiah from the Jews I know), seemed to make this the perfect board for this discussion.

[matches]

Originally Posted by Chloe

But the "old Testament" is not the be-all and end-all of Jewish sacred texts. There are many many works and commentaries and traditions. And it is certainly possible to find messianic references in the Torah--after all, Christians have certainly done so.

Since your wife in Jewish and you've attended services, why are you asking here?

Well, I do know about discussions of the Messiah in the Talmud and other places, however, i guess my real question is just how wide spread this belife is.

The Christian Legend seems to suggest that jews around the world are always in breathless antiticpation of the Messiah's comming, but my intereactions with Jews seem to suggest that something else is the case.

I wonder mostly about first century judaism, which Christians strongly hold anticipation of the Messiah was high, and modern judaism, which some christian legends hold such anticipation exists.

Commentary on the subject from the middle ages is perhaps suspect since we know that the mideval public practices of judaism often incorporated ideas that were popular in the general christian world at the time, as is the case in modern judaism as well (hence the popularity of Chanuka in conjunction with Christmas).

I have heard of Jews in the middle ages performing rituals reminicint of Ash Wednesday and other public displays so as to seem less foreign among the christians with whom the lived. Although these rituals were not the Christian rituals, the Jews of the time adopted these behaviors to appear more christian within their own sect (at least that's one interpretation I've heard).

As such it would not necessarily surprise me if obsession with a Messiah derived from a similar line of thought. The christians talk incessently about this messiah, so let's see how we can approach such an issue, as opposed to a long standing jewish tradition of a messiah, which Christianity either fullfilled or emulated for it's own purpose.

[hambubba]

Originally Posted by matches

The Christian Legend seems to suggest that jews around the world are always in breathless antiticpation of the Messiah's comming, but my intereactions with Jews seem to suggest that something else is the case.

I've never seen or heard anything to support that Christians think this, let alone that there are Jews who wake up every morning hoping that the Messiah has left them a gift under the tree or something.

Maybe in a Chick tract, but I don't think that this view is held by many Christians. That's 32 years of Christian experience and study talking.

Oh, and don't be afraid to ask your rabbi questions. Although, I'm sure if they don't exactly believe in God, their position on Yeshua is that he was not meshiah, in any way, shape or form, nor son of God. I actually would be fascinated on their answer to this.

[matches]

[quote=hambubba;164236]I've never seen or heard anything to support that Christians think this, let alone that there are Jews who wake up every morning hoping that the Messiah has left them a gift under the tree or something.

Maybe in a Chick tract, but I don't think that this view is held by many Christians. That's 32 years of Christian experience and study talking.
QUOTE]

Perhaps I overstate the case, and list it as an extreame example, but I think the idea, when discussed by christians usually has the rejection of Christ as the messiah, but that the concept of the messiah to be central to judeaism(sp?).

It is possible that this is just a Catholic belife, as most of my 33 years of christian experience has been in that field primarily.

I actually was just wondering what Chick thought of Jews recently, as I hadn't seen a tract on them in a while, however I do recall an old priest once telling me that everytime a jewish child is born, they wonder if this child might be the messiah. When my own child was born, no one suggested this, and I must say I felt a little hurt. (J/K)

Originally Posted by matches

Well, I do know about discussions of the Messiah in the Talmud and other places, however, i guess my real question is just how wide spread this belife is.

The Christian Legend seems to suggest that jews around the world are always in breathless antiticpation of the Messiah's comming, but my intereactions with Jews seem to suggest that something else is the case.

I wonder mostly about first century judaism, which Christians strongly hold anticipation of the Messiah was high, and modern judaism, which some christian legends hold such anticipation exists.

Commentary on the subject from the middle ages is perhaps suspect since we know that the mideval public practices of judaism often incorporated ideas that were popular in the general christian world at the time, as is the case in modern judaism as well (hence the popularity of Chanuka in conjunction with Christmas).

I have heard of Jews in the middle ages performing rituals reminicint of Ash Wednesday and other public displays so as to seem less foreign among the christians with whom the lived. Although these rituals were not the Christian rituals, the Jews of the time adopted these behaviors to appear more christian within their own sect (at least that's one interpretation I've heard).

As such it would not necessarily surprise me if obsession with a Messiah derived from a similar line of thought. The christians talk incessently about this messiah, so let's see how we can approach such an issue, as opposed to a long standing jewish tradition of a messiah, which Christianity either fullfilled or emulated for it's own purpose.

Actually the main tendency in Judaism in the last 1900 years has been to deliberately adopt behaviours which DIFFER froim Christianity.

The word messiah means "the anointed one". It was frequently applied in Old Testament times to kings and high priests. In the centuries after the Jews' return from exile in Babylon the expectation of a uniquely great Messiah who would be both king and high priest became stronger and stronger. By the first century AD it was very strong indeed.

We often tend to assume that the first century Jews rejected Jesus en masse. Obviously there are plenty of Jews still around and they are the inheritors of the majority who did reject Jesus. But a very large minority did accept him. Jesus clearly had many thousands of Jewish followers even during his life on earth.

Obviously those Jews who most strongly expected a Messiah were those most likely to accept Jesus. But those who rejected him remained waiting for another "true" Messiah. After the Christians were excluded from the synagogues about 45-50 AD, the remaining Jews began to emphasize differences between themselves and Christians. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and exiled the Jews (and Jewish Christians), this trend accelerated, and Messianic expectations were downplayed. No doubt the fact that Jews no longer even had their own homeland also encouraged the idea that if Jesus was not the Messiah, then the Messiah is coming later rather than sooner. But the expectation of a Messiah still remained, although less frequently discussed. In the 20th century some Jewish groups have placed renewed emphasis on the coming of the Messiah.