Japanese dolphin-killing

[Squishy0405]

http://www.connietalk.com/dolphins.html

I'm sure we all know about internet petitions but wouldn't more activist groups be involved?

[Mickey Blue]

The method of these killings are said to inflict pain and suffering on these friendly, intelligent animals.

I imagine this phrase is just poorly worded and they intend to mean they do not kill them humainly, however it comes off kinda wierd, as any method I can think of to kill somebody inflicts pain and/or suffering to them, if only briefly.


As for the dolphins themselves, if they aren't endangered (and I don't know if they are or aren't) then there is no problem here.. Its just another animal out there.

Some comedian said it, but I'll paraphrase, in regards to asians supposidly eating dogs:

"How can you eat dogs? Thats disgusting how you can do that.. Ok now go kill that chicken, chop it up and put it in a bucket, I'll eat it on the way home".

Its not like we never kill animals, and its not like our methods of raising/killing them don't inflict pain and suffering.

In the same sense that Hindus probably think its horrible what we do to cows, we think its horrible what others to do animals we think should be protected, its all culturally based, which is fine, but we need to keep it in perspective.

That said, I do recall seeing/reading about the Japanese shark fishermen who catch sharks, cut off their fins, and throw them back to die slowly in the water.. To me this is extremely wasteful and cruel, so maybe when they say "pain and suffereing" they really do mean something unique.

[pinqy]

In a matter of six months, 20,000 dolphins and porpoises will be slaughtered by Japanese fishermen if nothing is done. Each year, the Japanese government gives the go-ahead to fisherman to kill dolphins and porpoises between the months of October '06 and April '07 as a form of so-called "pest control," since dolphins can compete with the fish that fishermen are after.

I bet they kill a lot more than 20,000 fish. The writer doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

[Artemis]

[Futurama]
"Who wants dolphin?"

"But dolphins are intelligent!"

"Not this one. He blew all his money on instant lottery tickets."

...

"Pass the blowhole."

[/Futurama]

[rangerdog]

So much for the good fight fought for dolphin safe tuna. I wish she would actually give a cite.

[James G]

Originally Posted by pinqy

I bet they kill a lot more than 20,000 fish. The writer doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

Well Dolphins are self aware, fish aren't. I can see how that would make a difference.

Elephants can recognise their own reflection, showing self-awareness seen before only in humans, great apes and bottlenose dolphins, scientists say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6100430.stm

[ganzfeld]

Ooh! Ooh! Can I have a turn on the soapbox? Thanks.

Originally Posted by pinqy

I bet they kill a lot more than 20,000 fish. The writer doesn't seem to have a problem with that.

I think the real problem is the fish. (The problem of Japanese indifference to western feelings about large sea mammals is also real but I think this has been changing a lot. More on this below.) The real problem is that all countries have overfished so much that something's got to give. I think we should think about the fact that fish are wild animals and we can't support 7 billion people on a diet of wild animals. It just isn't going to be practical. Killing sea mammals is going to help much. I think the whole world needs to reconsider how we are going to handle this fish situation. (The US, I think, has a better record than most on this.)

About the insensitivity of killing one animal or another, it is true that these things are rather arbitrary but so is the taboo against eating human flesh. I don't think you can place a strictly rational value on most of these kinds of taboos. Societies accept such taboos as much as a way of not pissing off fellow human beings as because they consider it repugnant. Someone mentioned eating beef in India on a previous thread. Well, India exports a fairly good amount of beef (about as much as New Zealand) every year. What I mean to point out is that the line or prohibition is not always very clear. What would the Japanese lose by giving up whale and dolphin meat at this time, when whales here are much more popular as wild animals to watch than as food? Really, I think it's just a matter of time. I'm not so sure the whale population or their ecosystem can take as much culling as they have proposed. And I'm also fairly sure it is not nearly as politically popular as it once was to support whale and dolphin hunting. I mean, deep fried bonsai kittens taste great and they are just another animal but really there isn't any reason to eat them consdiring how much it annoys cat lovers.

What was it that people were saying about the man who set up pig races next to the mosque? I think it was: "That guy's a jerk." Yet these large mammals, including elephants, rhinos, whales, the large primates, etc. are important to humanity for more than just cultural and sentimental reasons. They are essential to our image of the planet and without them we will surely have lost something very important. All this talk about intelligence is kind of irrelevant to me. We know that many large mammals have already gone extinct in recent geological history (though we don't know why) so we know that it's quite possible many more also will. I'm not a biologist but I would even guess that it's a lot harder for mammalian populations to recover from severe reduction in numbers.

It should be acknowledged that it is quite possible for us as a human species to collectively decide to construct a new taboo against killing or eating certain large mammals. We've done it before. At one time anthropologists claimed that cannibalism was rare or unknown. More recently, plenty of evidence has come out showing that it wasn't uncommon. Why did it disappear? We decided that it was abhorrant to do it. We called the people who did so bad names. The idea spread and people stopped that. (I'm not saying that we have to or that it's the "right" thing to do. I'm much too practical for that.)

In answer to the OP question, there are a few NGOs who press this issue. But they are concentrating more now on conservation issues and trying ot regain control of various bodies about whaling. For the most part they seem to be rather pessimistic about changing the minds of the few remaining whaling nations.

[Horse Chestnut]

Japan's largest grocery chain stops selling dolphin meat.

[Ryda Wong, EBfCo.]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

At one time anthropologists claimed that cannibalism was rare or unknown. More recently, plenty of evidence has come out showing that it wasn't uncommon. Why did it disappear? We decided that it was abhorrant to do it. We called the people who did so bad names. The idea spread and people stopped that. (I'm not saying that we have to or that it's the "right" thing to do. I'm much too practical for that.)

I think the taboo came to pass with the emergence of Prion diseases (examples of which are Creutzfeldt-Jakob and Mad Cow Disease). If humans (like cows) get brain diseases from eating their own kind, it makes sense to build a taboo around it.



I've been spending time thinking about cannibalism today, due to the fact that I've netflixed Bones (hey, it's Angel, a really wonderful female charechter, and grusome, decomposing bodies. What's there not to like?), and a recent epi delt with a modern day cannibal.

So, Dr. "Bones" Brennen is discussing the case with Angel and the town sheriff, and they ask her if she would ever eat human flesh. She replies that she'd have to think about it, etc.

This got SO and I talking about if we'd eat human flesh if offered to us. I said, absolulety, yes. Damage is already done, and I'd be far too curious not to. And, to be quite frank, humans aren't really an endangered, or even threatened species, so you really aren't doing any sort of harm to the ecosystem if you cooked one for dinner. In fact, considering the harm humans do to the ecosystem, it would probably thank you.

Now, that being said, I'm not making "a modest proposal," due to the fact that humans are rational, self-aware creatures. However, is eating them isn't really any worse than eating a dolphin or dog or pig?

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.

I think the taboo came to pass with the emergence of Prion diseases (examples of which are Creutzfeldt-Jakob and Mad Cow Disease). If humans (like cows) get brain diseases from eating their own kind, it makes sense to build a taboo around it.

Possibly, as with many other food taboos, it started or succeeded because of disease but I do not think it was a kind of decision based directly (that is, consciously) upon diseases. (And no way, I wouldn't eat it! You can have all of mine. I have, however, I'm not so proud to admit, eaten whale.)

[Ryda Wong, EBfCo.]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

(And no way, I wouldn't eat it! You can have all of mine.

Wouldn't you be overcome with curiosity, though? I mean, it's not like thinking of eating a cockroch (which is totally narly and 100% out of the question). It'd be like eating a monkey or rattlesnake.....I'd just have to try it, or I'd never forgive myself.

Again, not that my curiosity would ever lead me to seek this out. Just want to make that clear, in case someone is thinking of tipping off the FBI

But, really, hasn't everyone who's lived post-silence-of-the-lambs wondered about it?

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.

Wouldn't you be overcome with curiosity, though? I mean, it's not like thinking of eating a cockroch (which is totally narly and 100% out of the question).

I've already eaten scorpions. I'd eat a roach before I was curious enough to eat people meat. Probably tastes just like chicken anyway.

[Troodon]

I don't eat most animals, and for me the deciding issue is mental development. I don't think that killing a dolphin is different than killing a person. I admit that I don't experience the same intensity of revulsion regarding dolphin killings as regarding human killings, but that's just irrational.

As for cultural changes regarding the acceptability of certian foods, I think that there is a good chance that in the future, dolphins (and whales, apes, etc.) will have legal rights and children will be taught about dolphin slaughtering that went on in the 21st century the same way that we are taught about various genocides.

[Mickey Blue]

Elephants can recognise their own reflection, showing self-awareness seen before only in humans, great apes and bottlenose dolphins, scientists say.

Well there goes my plan for an all-you-can-eat elephant, great ape, and dolphin bistro...

I think that there is a good chance that in the future, dolphins (and whales, apes, etc.) will have legal rights

Sure.. thats how it starts.. But before you know it they'll want to vote, get married, have their kids going to school with my kids, and by the time anybody bucks up to do anything about it I wont be able to order a NFBSK'in burger and fries without learning how to speak porpus first..

[mags]

Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.

This got SO and I talking about if we'd eat human flesh if offered to us. I said, absolulety, yes. Damage is already done, and I'd be far too curious not to.

I think I pretty much convinced on of my sister's ex-bfs that I was nuts, when we had a joking conversation about cannibalism at lunch one time. I do tend to take philosohpical discussions pretty far. What the actual conversation was about was that I think if I had to have a body part amputated for some reason, I would be tempted to cook it up and try it. When else are you going to get that chance? The real problem develops if it turns out to be really good- where can you get more if you find yourself craving it?

I've thought more about it since then, though, and the idea of eating someone else's flesh, even if they were dead already by other means, and I was starving, does turn my stomach. I think I could practice self-cannibalism without much compunction, but cannibalizing another is too much for me. I don't really know what to think of that.

I have thought about cannibalism in general at other times, and come to the conclusion that human meat probably just isn't all that great. If it was, cannibalism would always have been more widespread (especially in terms of eating "the enemy") and probably wouldn't be more or less entirely dead today.

[Bryan With a 'Y']

Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.

But, really, hasn't everyone who's lived post-silence-of-the-lambs wondered about it?

But for those who aren't quite ready to take that step, you can try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hufu

HuFu - The great taste of friends.