Political quotes about socialism

There's a new set of political quotes running around the net, and I can't find original sources for them. Are the following four bogus or misattributed?

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America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within. – Joseph Stalin

If you pay people not to work and tax them when they do, don't be surprised if you get unemployment. – Milton Friedman

A claim for equality of material possession can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers. – Friedrich Hayek

Socialism is a new form of slavery. – Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville

[crocoduck_hunter]

Even if any or all of them are accurate quotations, does it really matter?

[Steve]

The Friedman quote is considered unsourced by wikiquote, though I'd be surprised if he said it. It's not like he was against an income tax, and since his idea of a negative income tax would have amounted to paying people for not working, it would be odd if he said it.

[Majorsam]

To my surprise the de Tocqueville quote may be close.

The version I found says "...to the point where, were I to attempt to sum up what socialism is, I would say that it was simply a new system of serfdom..."

The translator could have swung the tone of that phrase one way or the other by swapping "Serfdom" with "Slavery" or vice versa. It makes for an interesting debate in context for those willing to delve deeper than the sound byte.

@Crockduck: It matters, because what the person - in this case de Tocqueville - says something more that illumines his whole point, and quite possibly contradicts what the quotater is trying to do. For instance:

"There is no God" - The Bible

is a 'true' quote. A more complete and accurate quote and citation would be:

"Fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right" Psalm 14:1

The first, while accurate, is a perversion of the original meaning. And

THANK YOU Majorsam

,
that seems to be the case here, for de Tocqueville, in his address to the Constituent Assembly, 12 September 1848, went on to say:

"Finally, the French Revolution wished—and it is this which made it not only beatified but sainted in the eyes of the people—to introduce charity into politics. It conceived the notion of duty towards the poor, towards the suffering, something more extended, more universal than had ever preceded it. It is this idea that must be recaptured, not, I repeat, by substituting the prudence of the State for individual wisdom, but by effectively coming to the aid of those in need, to those who, after having exhausted their resources, would be reduced to misery if not offered help, through those means which the State already has at its disposal.

That is essentially what the French Revolution aimed at, and that is what we ourselves must do.

I ask, is that socialism?

No, that is not socialism but Christian charity applied to politics."

And that longer quote of de Tocqueville is something very different than what that quotater was implying.

Thanks again, Majorsam.

[BrianB]

Originally Posted by The Waz

America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within. – Joseph Stalin

I can't prove it but I find this one highly doubtful since it's so reminiscent of that fake Karl Marx quote in 2009. For example, I found the quote on dozens of right-leaning and conspiracy sites but not a single reputable history site.

In addition, none of the sites with the quote say when or where it's supposedly from. (This one, for instance, just says "attributed.") Also, the earliest references to this quote only go back to 2001.

There are quite a number of valid quotes from Stalin about the US but nothing remotely like the OP. For example, here's an interview of Stalin by H.G. Wells (!) where Stalin discusses his views of the US. And here's Stalin's address to the Communist Party USA (CPUSA).

I also looked through the following sites but couldn't find anything close to the OP quote:

• Marxists.org's Stalin library
• University of Pennsylvania's online library of Stalin documents
• WikiQuote.org
• BrainyQuote.com

Finally, as the authentic Stalin quotes show the language in the alleged quote sounds nothing like Stalin. I find it highly unlikely that Stalin would say something that actually praises the strengths of American patriotism, morality, and spiritual life. Typically, this quote is used to support a conservative political or religious view. (This use of the quote to oppose gay marriage is typical.) I think it would be much more likely for him to have compared America to an unhealthy body due to, say, capitalism.

Brian

Thanks, BrianB

[Lost_Cavalier]

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter

Even if any or all of them are accurate quotations, does it really matter?

The Milton Friedman quote is particularly silly. I left the active duty military and transitioned to the National Guard, and until I was hired at my new full-time civilian job, I collected Unemployment Insurance.

It was taxed, at both the federal and state levels. I had to prove I was Honorably Dischraged, and not thrown out, or went AWOL. It had a time limit, after which it would have been completely cut-off. Not to mention it was a fraction of my previous salary.

So...to "freeload" off unemployment, you have to have a relatively high-paying job to begin with (just to get a few hundred dollars a week), you have to lose your job without being fired or quitting, and you can keep this up for (depending on the state) maybe a year at most. GREAT PLAN, BRO.

People who think that the government just hands out unemployment to every deadbeat off the street, have no idea how UI and UCX actually works.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by The Waz

If you pay people not to work and tax them when they do, don't be surprised if you get unemployment. – Milton Friedman

Socialism is a new form of slavery. – Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville

These two are not only stupid, but in total contradiction. Paying people not to work is the exact opposite of slavery, which is *not* paying people to *work*.

[almond]

Originally Posted by BrianB

I find it highly unlikely that Stalin would say something that actually praises the strengths of American patriotism, morality, and spiritual life. Typically, this quote is used to support a conservative political or religious view. (This use of the quote to oppose gay marriage is typical.) I think it would be much more likely for him to have compared America to an unhealthy body due to, say, capitalism.Brian

I was thinking the same thing. In communist ideology, capitalism and its greatest symbol, the USA was usually considered decadent and immoral.

[fitz1980]

Originally Posted by Cyrano

These two are not only stupid, but in total contradiction. Paying people not to work is the exact opposite of slavery, which is *not* paying people to *work*.

I believe that they are saying that paying people not to work with tax money is slavery for those who paid the taxes or some such thing. There's this whole twisted belief system that anti-tax demagogues use to claim that whatever tax they are up in arms about today, which is being used to support whatever program they don't like, is a form of slavery.

Originally Posted by BrianB

Finally, as the authentic Stalin quotes show the language in the alleged quote sounds nothing like Stalin. I find it highly unlikely that Stalin would say something that actually praises the strengths of American patriotism, morality, and spiritual life.

I had the same thought. Stalin was an atheist, like many Marxists, so he probably wouldn't be praising American spirituality.

[UEL]

Originally Posted by fitz1980

I had the same thought. Stalin was an atheist, like many Marxists, so he probably wouldn't be praising American spirituality.

I'm not so sure. Stalin was also a bit of a pragmatist. He would use whatever he could to enervate the loyalty and drive of his people. If demonising the Ukrainians would unify the Russians, Belorussians, Kazakhs, etc, then he would have done so more than he did just on principle. He could probably recognise that American spirituality was a great unifier and could be one of the keys to US success.

However, I'm speaking from my understanding of his personality. I'm not speaking from any academic knowledge.

[almond]

The Soviet communist regime was a very bad and cruel dictatorship, but it did have its own ideology, ethics and values. According to its ideology, it was the best and most moral system possible. It wasn't like: "We know the US is much better than us, but we want to bring it down just because we are evil, hee hee." Actually, according to original Marxism (which was somewhat twisted in the Soviet Union) the decadence of capitalism would eventually bring it down anyway without any help from outside.

Originally Posted by fitz1980

I believe that they are saying that paying people not to work with tax money is slavery for those who paid the taxes or some such thing. There's this whole twisted belief system that anti-tax demagogues use to claim that whatever tax they are up in arms about today, which is being used to support whatever program they don't like, is a form of slavery.

Tocqueville wasn't speaking about socialism as we know it now (a certain way of thinking which is adapted to democracy and capitalism). He was probably speaking about the ideal form of communism/socialism, which was more on the agenda at that time in the 19th century. In that ideal form, every factory, every mine etc. would be owned by the people, everyone would be taking part in the work equally and getting an equal share from the products. The concept of income tax is meaningless in this system. It doesn't exist. The system was considered to be slavery by its opponents because it does not leave space for individual creativity, entreprise etc.

[Troberg]

Originally Posted by almond

The Soviet communist regime was a very bad and cruel dictatorship, but it did have its own ideology, ethics and values. According to its ideology, it was the best and most moral system possible.

Actually, they considered it the second best. They were in the socialist stage of the development, and was aiming for an ideal communist society. The socialist stage is just a passing phase necessary to create the ideal end product.

[almond]

Originally Posted by Troberg

Actually, they considered it the second best. They were in the socialist stage of the development, and was aiming for an ideal communist society. The socialist stage is just a passing phase necessary to create the ideal end product.

Yes, that's true.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by UEL

Stalin was also a bit of a pragmatist. He would use whatever he could to enervate the loyalty and drive of his people.

True - during WWII (AKA the Great Patriotic War), Stalin's propaganda used whatever means it could to boost Russian patriotism, even if it contradicted pre-war Soviet dogma.

So, the propaganda squads started praising heroes of the past who fought foreign invaders like Alexander Nevski or Marshall Suvorov, including Czars like Peter the Great or Ivan the Terrible. Plus, knowing that despite the regime's efforts, the Orthodox Church was still an important part of the Russian psyche, you suddenly saw popes and patriarchs blessing aircraft and tanks - all things that would have been unthinkable a few years before.

[snopes]

The following was posted on Facebook, and I was wondering if this is a legitimate quote of Joseph Stalin:

“America is like a healthy body and its resistance is three fold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.”

[Chloe]

Crappy simile. How do those three things defend a body? How often do bodies collapse from within?

[Dropbear]

I can do it better.

"America is like a healthy body, its strength is threefold. Its its patriotism is its bones, its morality is its blood, and its spiritual life is its heart. If we can undermine these three areas, America will die. I have set in place a long term strategy to achieve this end - headed by a deep cover operative codenamed... Obama!”

Dun dun duuuuuun!

Dropbear

[crescent]

Originally Posted by snopes

“America is like a healthy body and its resistance is three fold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.”

People who write this crap seem to think that the right wing narrative of America's greatness is so self evident, that even our enemies can't help but acknowledge it.

I am pretty sure that if Stalin ever gave it any thought, he probably thought that America and Americans in general had no morals, and he probably felt that spirituality was a sign of weakness, not strength.

I suppose he might have understood that American patriotism exists, but the other two points seem a great stretch for him.