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  #1  
Old 20 April 2007, 10:23 PM
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Icon605 How can you win at slots in Las Vegas?

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Let's get right to the point about America's favorite gambling devices. Slots should be played only for fun and entertainment — and absolutely never with any expectation of winning. Anyone who tells you he has a system to beat the slots is on tilt. There are no systems. There is no such thing as a hot or cold machine. And there isn't a single machine among the 800,000 in the U.S. that is "due" to pay out in the next five minutes — or even the next five days. And when one does erupt, it might do it again two minutes later. Or maybe not for two more years.
http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-trw-vegas15apr15
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  #2  
Old 20 April 2007, 11:03 PM
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This is a great article, and it strikes me as simply amazing how so much poker terminology has made its way into mainstream gambling terminology (tilt, fish).

My dad thought he had a system of beating the slots. He was always bragging about his winnings, but he never really kept track like I do when I play poker. At some point, I finally started to wonder where all of his money went. Yep. Over the past ten years, I'd be willing to wager that he has thrown away at least $2 million in those nasty things.

And I never accept a wager if I don't perceive the odds to be in my favor.

In other words, I don't play slots.

There is a sign right when I walk into the door of our local Indian casino that says, "Our slots boast a 98.7% payout rate!".

Anyone who thinks he can beat a 98.7% payout rate never learned "greater than", "less than", and "equal" in elementary school.
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  #3  
Old 20 April 2007, 11:07 PM
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Anyone who thinks he can beat a 98.7% payout rate never learned "greater than", "less than", and "equal" in elementary school.
That's why you need a system. Heck, anybody could beat a machine with a 101.3% payout rate ...

- snopes
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  #4  
Old 21 April 2007, 04:35 AM
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I find slots about as amusing (and as profitable) as throwing quarters out the car window and watching them bounce on the highway.

I just don't get gambling. I'd rather go shopping, that way at least I KNOW what I'm getting in exchange for being broke.

And looking around at the opulence of (most) casinos, what fool thinks they are giving out more than they are taking in?
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  #5  
Old 21 April 2007, 05:27 AM
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Teacher Yes, I have a system

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Originally Posted by bjohn13 View Post
Over the past ten years, I'd be willing to wager that he has thrown away at least $2 million in those nasty things.

And I never accept a wager if I don't perceive the odds to be in my favor.

In other words, I don't play slots.

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Originally Posted by snapdragonfly View Post
I find slots about as amusing (and as profitable) as throwing quarters out the car window and watching them bounce on the highway.

(snip)

And looking around at the opulence of (most) casinos, what fool thinks they are giving out more than they are taking in?
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Originally Posted by snopes View Post
That's why you need a system. Heck, anybody could beat a machine with a 101.3% payout rate ...

I fully agree with all the above. The house always has the advantage and will, in the long run, win. UNLESS you can find a way to change the odds to your favor.

Using my system, I have made almost $900 this year (and lost nothing.)
In fact, if you follow my system to the letter ANYONE can make money on slot machines. I am so confident that I would offer ONE MILLION dollars to anyone who followed my system for one month and lost money.

What do I want for this amazing CASH generating system? $1000.00? It would be worth it, but no. $100.00? NO. All this can be yours for a simple email and promise that you will not reveal my secret to anyone else. That's it! (Of course if you feel compelled to send me 10% as a commission, I won't send it back!)

Seriously, though. I have a secret, but it requires FIRM discipline and SOUND judgement. I play slot machines usually 4-5 days a week for an average of about 30 min to 1 hour at a time. I am concerned that if TOO MANY people start doing it, I can no longer win with it (since it is all the undisciplined, math-challenged, superstitious people that are really paying me!)

Mail me if you want the secret, it does work!

-Rogue
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  #6  
Old 21 April 2007, 09:48 PM
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E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
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My grandparents had an old, mechanical, nickel slot machine in the house, which now belongs to my Dad. I consider this fortunate, as it both got what fascination slots might have largely out of my system (and indeed, I have no attraction whatever to today's electronic slots -- the old mechanical ones at least had some character); and, playing many times and keeping track of the returns, definitely taught me that in the long run, if you keep playing, you lose. Of course, some lucky individuals will take home big winnings occasionally, but the odds aren't with you.

Aside from that, slots hold little attraction to me, because all you do is feed in the money and pull the lever. For entertainment purposes, I prefer games where there is some decision-making involved -- blackjack or video poker are where I usually throw my money away. But my whole approach to gambling is to figure out how much I'm willing to spend for the evening's entertainment, and be prepared to lose it all. If I happen to lose less than all, cool; if I actually bring back more than I came with -- awesome! (Not sure that's ever happened, though the last time I did come out ahead in the fact that I happened to make just about enough profit on the video poker to pay for the casino's buffet....)

That's not to say you can't win gambling, but it's usually a lot of work. Blackjack card-counting does work. I also read a book by a guy who gives a complete method for winning at small-stakes, limit hold-'em poker. It's very specialized -- the game changes if you go no-limit, or move to higher stakes, or play in tournaments -- but he says he could reliably average winnings of $12-$15 per hour. He notes, however, that that is an average, and that it's not like you can walk into a casino with $50 and be confident of walking out with $75 two hours later; sometimes you will have much more, sometimes you might have nothing. It depends partly on luck, and partly on the quality of your opponents -- the whole method depends largely on the fact that most of the other people playing low-stakes, limit poker won't be very good at it. He recommends saving up a "cushion" of several hundred dollars before you start playing seriously.

As far as slots go, the most common theory I've heard is to play machines near the front doors, particularly of the small downtown casinos; the idea is that these machiens are set to pay off more often, so that the sound of their paying out will draw more customers inside. I have no idea if there is any basis to this belief or not.
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  #7  
Old 21 April 2007, 09:57 PM
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I fully agree with all the above. The house always has the advantage and will, in the long run, win. UNLESS you can find a way to change the odds to your favor.

Using my system, I have made almost $900 this year (and lost nothing.)
In fact, if you follow my system to the letter ANYONE can make money on slot machines. I am so confident that I would offer ONE MILLION dollars to anyone who followed my system for one month and lost money.
Unless basic statistical theory changed while I wasn't looking, or your "system" involves reprogramming slot machines (or some other illegal form of manipulation), you're peddling nothing more than blind luck.

The only "advantage" one can gain in playing slots is to determine which machines are set a little "looser" (i.e., have a smaller hold) than others. But since they all return less than 100%, you're an ultimate loser in the long run no matter what.

- snopes
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  #8  
Old 21 April 2007, 10:01 PM
bjohn13
 
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Originally Posted by snopes View Post
Unless basic statistical theory changed while I wasn't looking, or your "system" involves reprogramming slot machines (or some other illegal form of manipulation), you're peddling nothing more than blind luck.

The only "advantage" one can gain in playing slots is to determine which machines are set a little "looser" (i.e., have a smaller hold) than others. But since they all return less than 100%, you're an ultimate loser in the long run no matter what.

- snopes
My system involves puttin in a $20 bill once while waiting for a poker seat, cashing out $22.50 when my seat opened, and never playing one again. Yep. I'm a lifetime slots winner.
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  #9  
Old 21 April 2007, 10:04 PM
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As far as slots go, the most common theory I've heard is to play machines near the front doors, particularly of the small downtown casinos; the idea is that these machiens are set to pay off more often, so that the sound of their paying out will draw more customers inside. I have no idea if there is any basis to this belief or not.
Actually, downtown Las Vegas is about the worst place to play slots (or anything else) these days. The casual tourists all hit the Strip (even though the games there have terrible odds), and the knowledgeable gamblers generally head for the "locals" casinos that have sprung up in the outlying areas (e.g., Henderson, Summerlin), leaving downtown with no niche to exploit beyond offering notoriously tight machines to suck loose change from low-rent gamblers.

- snopes
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  #10  
Old 21 April 2007, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
That's not to say you can't win gambling, but it's usually a lot of work. Blackjack card-counting does work.
But the house will catch card counters, and they will either kick them out, or they will structure the game so that they cannot win even with counting. One of the greatest blackjack players who ever lived, a guy by the name of Stuey Ungar, lost the last of his money at the blackjack tables. He was so adept at reading cards, they changed the game from a $5/$600 spread to a $300/$600 spread. The result was that, since the minimum bet was $300, he could no longer create edges for himself in situations where the odds were in his favor, and he could no longer dribble chips away in the vast amount of situations where the odds were not in his favor.

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I also read a book by a guy who gives a complete method for winning at small-stakes, limit hold-'em poker. It's very specialized -- the game changes if you go no-limit, or move to higher stakes, or play in tournaments -- but he says he could reliably average winnings of $12-$15 per hour. He notes, however, that that is an average, and that it's not like you can walk into a casino with $50 and be confident of walking out with $75 two hours later; sometimes you will have much more, sometimes you might have nothing.
I'm a semi-professional poker player, and I know the books you talk about (I've read them all). Anyone can learn to beat a game of limit poker by learning basic probability. No limit poker is an entirely different beast, but definitely more profitable for those who know their odds. Tournament poker is completely different, and I'll freely admit that I'm just another donkey at the tournament tables. That said, I made about what your friend quoted, $12-$15 an hour, playing in a live $3/$6 limit hold 'em game, and this is over a span of about 500,000 hands. I could move up in levels, but the problem for me is twofold. 1) I feel bad for the problem gamblers at the table, so I just have to leave sometimes to ease my own conscience and 2) Playing a $5/$10 game, where I was averaging about $20 an hour, the pots were so dang big they started to affect my game. A key element in being a winning poker player is not letting the size of the pot affect one's judgement. I will eventually move up, but I have no long term plans of going pro (I love my day job too much).


Quote:
It depends partly on luck, and partly on the quality of your opponents -- the whole method depends largely on the fact that most of the other people playing low-stakes, limit poker won't be very good at it. He recommends saving up a "cushion" of several hundred dollars before you start playing seriously.
You would be surprised. You already know more about the game of poker than most of the donkeys I meet who actually play the game on a regular basis. I'll be honest and say that out of the hundreds (no, thousands) of players I have encountered at poker tables over the years, there are about 12 good players (note, I've never played in Vegas). While every session is not a winning session, and some sessions are actually big losses, there is no gambling in poker for me, and there is no luck involved. The point you made about bankroll management is the most important reason why. I play $3/$6 as a game of choice, and that means that the biggest bet at any given time is $6. I have a bankroll of $2,000 to play in this game in order to absorb the swings. With this much cushion, there is no short term for me. Put me at a table with 9 donkeys indefinitely, and I will get their money.

The difference, though, between me taking a poker player's money and the casino taking a slot machine player's money is the fact that the poker players have all the resources at their disposal necessary to beat the game. It's just that 99% of the poker players I run into think they are better than the people writing the books. Yep. And that's why the people writing the books do it for a living.
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  #11  
Old 22 April 2007, 08:19 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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This is a great article, and it strikes me as simply amazing how so much poker terminology has made its way into mainstream gambling terminology (tilt, fish).
Actually, I'm pretty sure that tilt came from pinball machines (the act of slamming it violently to alter the trajectory of the ball so hard that the machine notice and ends the game/ball).

Quote:
The difference, though, between me taking a poker player's money and the casino taking a slot machine player's money is the fact that the poker players have all the resources at their disposal necessary to beat the game.
And more important, poker is a zero sum game (except for the small percentage the casino may take) where skill counts. You play against other players, and if you are better than them, you usually get their money. This makes it so effective to play against low skill opponents.

Slots (or blackjack, craps, roulette or a bunch of other casino games), on the other hand, are very different. You play against the bank, and the rules are set up in a way that will, in the long run, bleed your wallet dry. Different games have different mechanism to make sure the playing field is not level (odds given not matching the mathematical odds (craps, sometimes roulette), house wins on equal (blackjack), house wins on 0 and 00 (roulette)). These games are set up in such a way that even the best system can never give better odds than the inherent payback in the rules. Some of them, such as roulette, are even designed in a way that really do not give any relevance at all to system, regardless of how you play it, the long term loss rate is the same.

I'm not a good poker player, I think I have less than 10 hours total, but I still find that a basic knowledge of probabilities allows me to beat most players I've played against, even some who has played a lot. If I just could learn to be less inclined to throw good money after bad when a potential hand don't pan out, I could probably be good enough to get more consistent wins.
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Old 22 April 2007, 09:56 AM
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I've always thought that the best way to win money in casinos is to open a casino of your own.

Last edited by DarkFeline; 22 April 2007 at 10:24 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 22 April 2007, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bjohn13 View Post
This is a great article, and it strikes me as simply amazing how so much poker terminology has made its way into mainstream gambling terminology (tilt, fish).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
Actually, I'm pretty sure that tilt came from pinball machines (the act of slamming it violently to alter the trajectory of the ball so hard that the machine notice and ends the game/ball).
I would think the terms came about independently, with "on tilt" in poker perhaps originally coming from playing "full tilt", i.e. attacking, this later coming to mean over-aggressive play after a bad beat. Maybe it even came from Don Quixote.

The pinball term tilt surely comes from "tilting" the table to change the course of the ball.
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Old 22 April 2007, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rogue74656 View Post
I fully agree with all the above. The house always has the advantage and will, in the long run, win. UNLESS you can find a way to change the odds to your favor.

Using my system, I have made almost $900 this year (and lost nothing.)
In fact, if you follow my system to the letter ANYONE can make money on slot machines. I am so confident that I would offer ONE MILLION dollars to anyone who followed my system for one month and lost money.
Does your system involve owning a slot machine of your own and puttingit in the lobby of a hotel or a gas station? I could see how you could get 900 a year that way...
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Old 22 April 2007, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoneage Dinosaur View Post
I would think the terms came about independently, with "on tilt" in poker perhaps originally coming from playing "full tilt", i.e. attacking, this later coming to mean over-aggressive play after a bad beat.
That's not quite what tilt means in poker. Tilt in poker is any outside factor, outside of actual knowledge for the game itself, that affects one's play. Tilt takes many forms, and it is the most important factor a good poker player has to overcome to become a winning poker player.

The form of tilt I'm most prone to is just tightening up too much when the cards aren't hitting. The tilt, in opponents, that's easiest for me to exploit are the players who open up their games when they are hot...the people who "ride their rushes".

And, of course, the most destructive form of tilt, the form the problem gamblers often display, is letting anger after a bad beat affect their game.

But tilt can be cause by several factors: lack of sleep, hunger, being too full, caffeine or lack thereof, alcohol or lack thereof, nicotine or lack thereof, the color of the table....
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Old 22 April 2007, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
If I just could learn to be less inclined to throw good money after bad when a potential hand don't pan out, I could probably be good enough to get more consistent wins.
A form of tilt. You have identified it, now you just need to realize it while it's happening rather than after it has happened.
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  #17  
Old 22 April 2007, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Does your system involve owning a slot machine of your own and puttingit in the lobby of a hotel or a gas station? I could see how you could get 900 a year that way...
I was about to ask that as well. The only guaranteed way to make money at slots is the be the guy who gets to keep what is taken from the machine at the end of the day.

I never understood why people have systems and think they can beat the house. The worst is my stepmother who has a sure-fire system of winning at slots because about 20 years ago she got very lucky and won about 30,000 at Caesars. But she insists that there is some discernable pattern to slots and even the lottery and you just got to look for it.

If there was a pattern, wouldn't that imply there is some mystical power that is affected by the cards/dice/machine which in turns affects the magical power?
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Old 22 April 2007, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dantonini View Post
If there was a pattern, wouldn't that imply there is some mystical power that is affected by the cards/dice/machine which in turns affects the magical power?
I can see how in a system (lotto, slots etc.) where the numbers were mechanically generated, some one might think they have a system as a physical factor may come into play as evidenced by this story, but in a world of electronically generated slot and lottery machines, I cannot fathom any system that would work.
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Old 22 April 2007, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
"If I just could learn to be less inclined to throw good money after bad when a potential hand don't pan out, I could probably be good enough to get more consistent wins."

A form of tilt. You have identified it, now you just need to realize it while it's happening rather than after it has happened.
Yes, and that's what I'm working on. I've found it helpful to not think of the chips as money, merely as game pieces.

Swedish newspaper Expressen has a poker question every day in the form of a game situation where one has to decide what to do, answered by a professional player. So far, I've answered every single question correctly according to the expert, except for one and that was a poker variant where I was not familiar with the rules and thus would not play in real life. Maybe there's hope for me still...
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  #20  
Old 23 April 2007, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rogue74656 View Post
So far one person has asked for details, which I have supplied.

-Rogue
Ok, I was that one person. I rarely get to the casino but asked out of curiosity. Since Rogue doesn't want the system details posted because too many people will start doing it and the casinos may stop offering the element that the system depends on*, I can't really say much about it except:

1. If you follow the steps exactly, you cannot possibly lose any of your own money.

2. Your trips to the casino won't last very long, probably minutes each. (unless you like the buffet)

3. It is perfectly legal and ethical.

4. It isn't really what I think of when someone mentions they have, "a system." It isn't even slightly complicated.

I am sorry to sound cryptic, but I am respecting Rogue's request not to give away the system.




*I don't think that is likely. I think Rogue would be safe in posting the system here, the casinos know what they are doing and would be happy to have more people following this system, because that would get more people into the casino, and a lot of them will not follow the system once they get there and will lose money. Which is why the casinos offer the element that makes this system possible in the first place.
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