Airline crew overshoots airport by 150 miles

[snopes]

Two Northwest Airlines pilots failed to make radio contact with ground controllers for more than an hour and overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles before discovering the mistake and turning around.

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/art...port22-ON.html

[Eddylizard]

Was their last message STENDEC?
Seriously this is a state of the art aircraft. It has inertilal navigation, and GPS. And as noted in the article multiple backup communication systems with the ground. The thing can practically find its way to the airport and land itself if it's allowed to, from my understanding (though that's not to my knowledge been allowed on a commercial flight.).

If the pilots are being overworked to the extent that this occurred, then some repurcussions for the airline are in order.

[Floater]

The plane landed safely Wednesday evening, apparently without passengers realizing that anything had been amiss. No one was hurt.

I made a very, very rough estimate (those who are better at maths, please make a better one). Anyway, the figure I got was that they were ca 5 minutes overdue for landing when they found out what had happened. A passenger would probably hardly notice that they were some 10-15 minutes late when they landed at last.

And why would anybody have been hurt from a perfectly normal, controlled landing?

Wordings like that make me think of a notice in a newspaper about the plane that was the first to use the new landing strip at Oslo Gardermoen airport. When approaching Gardermoen the pilot realised he had forgotten to bring an updated airport map so he made a quick stopover in Copenhagen to pick one up. From what the journalist wrote you could get the impression that the whole cabin was in a state of panic.

[CenTex]

I am not a pilot, not do I play one on TV, but it is my understanding that modern airline flight is several hours of boredom followed by 20 minutes of excitement. They were talking about this on the Today Show this morning. They indicated that TPTB will be listening to the cocpit voice recorder and see if the crew were indeed in a "heated discussion."

[snopes]

Federal investigators have intensified their efforts to figure out why a commercial jet plane carrying 144 passengers and five crew members over the northern plains of the United States overshot its destination by 150 miles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/24/us/24plane.html

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Eddylizard

Seriously this is a state of the art aircraft. It has inertilal navigation, and GPS. And as noted in the article multiple backup communication systems with the ground.

This has been standard equipment since the 1970s, with the exception of GPS. (Which is more than made up for with land-based radionavigation beacons and sophisticated RNAV.)

The thing can practically find its way to the airport and land itself if it's allowed to, from my understanding (though that's not to my knowledge been allowed on a commercial flight.).

Lots of elements of modern airliners can be automated but the pilots need to tell the aircraft what to do first, and make changes to the flight plan as circumstances require.

If you compare the flight plan with the actual flight path, the aircraft stayed on its preselected course while the pilots were not responding, and upon passing the airport at 9:03 EDT, the aircraft (having no other input) maintained that 71/72 degree radial until the pilots were roused and began maneuvering. Luckily for other traffic, the aircraft had no preselected descent profile or terminal arrival and thus maintained its altitude throughout.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...SAN/KMSP/route

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N.../KMSP/tracklog

[rhiandmoi]

I was on a flight recently that may have overshot our airport by about 70 miles. I noticed, because I was looking out the window, and noticed that I was almost to San Francisco, and since I was supposed to be landing in San Jose - that was wrong.( I say may have overshot, because since it didn't make the news I don't know if we got into some weird traffic pattern due to the fact that 3 major high traffic airports sharing airspace makes for a lot of planes in the sky at once, or if maybe the pilot thought we were supposed to go to SF instead or what.) But since a flight attendant is the one that is supposed to have brought up the situation, they probably looked out the window and noticed what was up too.

I'm more concerned that the plane didn't respond to the ATCs for an hour. In the planes I've been in there is also a radio in the galley and front service area for the flight attendants. If the ATCs can't reach the pilots shouldn't they try the flight attendants to see if they can get to the bottom of it? Like send one of those text messages to the galley that pings the flight crew?

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

I was on a flight recently that may have overshot our airport by about 70 miles. I noticed, because I was looking out the window, and noticed that I was almost to San Francisco, and since I was supposed to be landing in San Jose - that was wrong.

The two airports are only 26 nautical miles apart and flying over San Francisco is a common arrival procedure.

In the planes I've been in there is also a radio in the galley and front service area for the flight attendants.

This is an intercom to communicate with the flight deck. Flight attendants can't use the aircraft's radios from the galley because the pilots need them!

There are probably satellite phones the flight attendants could use to contact their flight operations center without having access to the flight deck, but this apparently didn't happen.

[rhiandmoi]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

The two airports are only 26 nautical miles apart and flying over San Francisco is a common arrival procedure.

Flying from Los Angeles to San Jose, does not have as a common arrival procedure flying over San Francisco.

[WildaBeast]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

Flying from Los Angeles to San Jose, does not have as a common arrival procedure flying over San Francisco.

Arrival procedures can vary depending on the weather, in particular the wind speed and direction. So it might not be common as in "the procedure used most often", but it doesn't strike me as all that unusual. I've been on flights from Sacramento to Sea-Tac the flew past downtown Seattle and made a 180 degree turn before landing (The airport's actually between Seattle and Tacoma, and I'm guessing the distance we flew past the airport would be about the same as San Jose - SFO).

[RobDBlackwolf]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

Flying from Los Angeles to San Jose, does not have as a common arrival procedure flying over San Francisco.

First, I am not a pilot, but love flight simulator and FSX does teach a bit about landing procedures.

As Wildabeast said, landing directions are based on wind direction, landings and takeoffs are done with nose into the wind, to help with the lift generated.
And I looked at the layout of the Mineta San Jose airport and if the wind came from the south, then indeed the plane would first fly up north then turn around to land on Runway 12R (it seems 12L is closed for taxi only, at least on the Live Earth pictures).

(The stretch of flying past the runway on the way to the landing is called the "Downwind Leg".)

[Eddylizard]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

I was on a flight recently that may have overshot our airport by about 70 miles. I noticed, because I was looking out the window, and noticed that I was almost to San Francisco, and since I was supposed to be landing in San Jose - that was wrong

You should have gone up to the cockpit door and done your best Dionne Warwick impersonation.

Do you know the way to San Jose?

What? Someone was thinking it.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

Flying from Los Angeles to San Jose, does not have as a common arrival procedure flying over San Francisco.

If runway 12L or 12R is operating, the most direct approach route for IFR aircraft arriving from the south is to fly over Woodside, turn southeast, and line up with the runway at a point about halfway between San Francisco International and San Jose International. If you were put in a traffic pattern on this arrival procedure you'd do a 180, fly to within 10 miles of San Francisco, and turn back around.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by Floater

I made a very, very rough estimate (those who are better at maths, please make a better one). Anyway, the figure I got was that they were ca 5 minutes overdue for landing when they found out what had happened. A passenger would probably hardly notice that they were some 10-15 minutes late when they landed at last.

What the passengers noticed, or whether they were inconvenienced, is beside the point.

[Just Jocko]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

If runway 12L or 12R is operating, the most direct approach route for IFR aircraft arriving from the south is to fly over Woodside, turn southeast, and line up with the runway at a point about halfway between San Francisco International and San Jose International. If you were put in a traffic pattern on this arrival procedure you'd do a 180, fly to within 10 miles of San Francisco, and turn back around.

But there might be other, extenuating circumstances, like increased traffic or weather that alter that distance and put the plane even closer to San francisco, certainly close enough for rhiandmoi to see the city.

[snopes]

Though the practice of nodding off midflight in the cockpit is now strictly forbidden by the FAA, U.S. airlines and pilot unions say there is reputable research supporting the notion that so-called controlled napping can enhance safety by making crews more alert during critical, often hectic descents and landings.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125504526670974763.html

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Just Jocko

But there might be other, extenuating circumstances, like increased traffic or weather that alter that distance and put the plane even closer to San francisco, certainly close enough for rhiandmoi to see the city.

Possibly. You'd easily see San Francisco on approach so long as your window was facing that direction at some point, the weather was clear, and you were paying attention. At 3000 feet you can see over 60 miles. The distance between San Francisco and San Jose just isn't very much when you're on a jet aircraft.

[lord_feldon]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091026/...ight_overflown

Two Northwest Airlines pilots have told federal investigators that they were going over schedules using their laptop computers in violation of company policy while their plane overflew their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles, the National Transportation Safety Board said Monday.

[para1]

****checking to see if the pilots are listed as snopesters...nope!*****

[snopes]

The Federal Aviation Administration has revoked the licenses of the two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot their Minneapolis destination by 150 miles.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091027/...ight_overflown