Flu Vaccines & Meds May Be Worthless

[Steve Eisenberg]

Does the Vaccine Matter?

The U.S. government—with the support of leaders in the public-health and medical communities—has put its faith in the power of vaccines and antiviral drugs to limit the spread and lethality of swine flu. Other plans to contain the pandemic seem anemic by comparison. Yet some top flu researchers are deeply skeptical of both flu vaccines and antivirals. Like the engineers who warned for years about the levees of New Orleans, these experts caution that our defenses may be flawed, and quite possibly useless against a truly lethal flu. And that unless we are willing to ask fundamental questions about the science behind flu vaccines and antiviral drugs, we could find ourselves, in a bad epidemic, as helpless as the citizens of New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina. . . .

When Lisa Jackson, a physician and senior investigator with the Group Health Research Center, in Seattle, began wondering aloud to colleagues if maybe something was amiss with the estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction for people who get flu vaccine, the response she got sounded more like doctrine than science. “People told me, ‘No good can come of [asking] this,’” she says. “‘Potentially a lot of bad could happen’ for me professionally by raising any criticism that might dissuade people from getting vaccinated, because of course, ‘We know that vaccine works.’ This was the prevailing wisdom.” . . .

The results were also so unexpected that many experts simply refused to believe them. Jackson’s papers were turned down for publication in the top-ranked medical journals. One flu expert who reviewed her studies for the Journal of the American Medical Association wrote, “To accept these results would be to say that the earth is flat!” When the papers were finally published in 2006, in the less prominent International Journal of Epidemiology, they were largely ignored by doctors and public-health officials. “The answer I got,” says Jackson, “was not the right answer.”

This is a wonderful article in the spirit of my tag line.

And for those who won't read it: The article does NOT, repeat NOT, say the vaccines are risky. It doesn't even say that the vaccine are definitely worthless, rather calling for more research. It's mostly about the vaccines being oversold.

Most interesting to me was the criticism of tamiflu and relenza.

Based on this article, one big advantage of the vaccines may be that people will think any cold they get isn't the flu. So they won't bug their doc for tamiflu and relenza, which seem to have more safety issues than the vaccines.

P.S. Full disclosure: I get the flu vaccine every year. As long as my employer keeps on giving it to me for free, I'll keep on taking it.

[ET1 (SS)]

hmm, interesting.

I am 'on-the-fence' on this issue.

I had to take every vax known to man, often repeatedly, during my 20+ year Naval career.

I have gotten the flu many times from the flu-shots, as have many of my fellow crewman.

Friends who have 'Gulf-war' and other 'undiagnosable diseases' do make us all wonder about the 'safety' of our medical industry.

[Steve Eisenberg]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

hmm, interesting.

I am 'on-the-fence' on this issue.

I had to take every vax known to man, often repeatedly, during my 20+ year Naval career.

I have gotten the flu many times from the flu-shots, as have many of my fellow crewman.

Friends who have 'Gulf-war' and other 'undiagnosable diseases' do make us all wonder about the 'safety' of our medical industry.

In light of the OP article's skepticism concerning many flu diagnoses, I ask how you know you had the flu. Did the Navy always give you a blood test, or did you have one of the quicker tests the article debunks? Influenza cannot be self-diagnosed.

As for your fellow crewmen, did you work with medical records and thus know the results of blood tests, or are these just friend of a friend stories?

I am confused as to what issue you are on the fence with, because your post does not really seem to me a response to what is in the OP article. For example, it says virtually nothing about flu vaccine safety (while questioning the safety of some of the anti-viral drugs given after you get the flu).

I am sorry for being skeptical concerning a relatively new poster. It may turn out that you are a scientifically-oriented corpsman, or other medical professional, with sterling scientific justification for your views. But, I hope wrongly, it seems to me that you may be spreading UL's more than staunching them.

One good thing about the "medical industry" is that it generates a fair amount of careful self-criticism internally. Note that one of the two OP article authors is employed by the British Medical Journal, generally considered one the world's four top medical journals.

[ET1 (SS)]

Originally Posted by Steve Eisenberg

In light of the OP article's skepticism concerning many flu diagnoses, I ask how you know you had the flu. Did the Navy always give you a blood test, or did you have one of the quicker tests the article debunks? Influenza cannot be self-diagnosed.

As for your fellow crewmen, did you work with medical records and thus know the results of blood tests, or are these just friend of a friend stories?

I am confused as to what issue you are on the fence with, because your post does not really seem to me a response to what is in the OP article. For example, it says virtually nothing about flu vaccine safety (while questioning the safety of some of the anti-viral drugs given after you get the flu).

I am sorry for being skeptical concerning a relatively new poster. It may turn out that you are a scientifically-oriented corpsman, or other medical professional, with sterling scientific justification for your views. But, I hope wrongly, it seems to me that you may be spreading UL's more than staunching them.

One good thing about the "medical industry" is that it generates a fair amount of careful self-criticism internally. Note that one of the two OP article authors is employed by the British Medical Journal, generally considered one the world's four top medical journals.

When the HM gives flu-shots, they always tell you to expect to get sick with the flu or flu-like symptoms for the following week. Then like clockwork you get sick, as does half the crew.

No blood tests are done, no blood tests are needed. The HM knows that you are sick with a flu. He predicted that you would get the flu.

Besides subs only have one HM. While he does have lots of neat equipment, he is not about to be running a bunch of tests when he already knows what is wrong with the crew. [that and he is likely to be just as sick as the rest of us]

When we all get the same flu-shot on the same day, and a majority of us proceed to get sick. It seems rather obvious where the sickness came from.

Sharing bunkrooms on a sub, there are few secrets. When someone has an illness it is known by everyone.

The situational awareness of living on a watchbill, of rotating shift-work, you know who is sick and who is not sick. Because as sick as you may be, you would like to get off-watch soon so you can go lay down, but you need someone who is less sick to relieve you.

And yes I have been real sick [puking, diarrhea, sweats, etc] and have had to stay on-watch [operating my equipment] because I was the least sick from among the qualified crewmen. There are many watch-stations on a sub, and they must all be manned for the sub to safely operate.

I am not a medical professional.

I am an Electronic Technician First Class in the Silent Service, now retired.

Feel free to say that I do not have the needed qualifications to hold a valid opinion.

In the case of the polio vax. The disease was seriously bad. Making a vax, even if the vax hurts 1 out of every 10,000 it is still much better than having polio.

Today making a new flu vax every year, when there are still questions about the safety of vaccines, seems out of place. If there is mercury in the vax, or anything else that might trigger autism in even 1 kid out of 10,000, is that truly worth vaccinating everyone?

Some folks will die every year from flu. It happens. And no vaccine will stop these deaths. We have had flu vaccines for years now and still folks die from the flu. So these vaccines are not wiping out the flu, not like they did for polio.

So if the flu shots do not really help anyone, and if there is even the tiniest link to any disabling diseases that may come from vaccines; then we should seriously reconsider if this is the proper path to follow.


I have friends who are suffering with 'gulf-war' syndrome. I have had friends who have died from it.

I am extremely lucky. I have had nearly every vaccine known to man, and I have survived. I know that I am a lucky man. I have only to look at my disabled friends to see how lucky I am.

I am also the Chaplain for my local VFW. I perform funerals every month for friends of mine as they pass away.

Far too often the culprit who shortened these men's lives has been the medical industry.

[llewtrah]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

Some folks will die every year from flu. It happens. And no vaccine will stop these deaths. We have had flu vaccines for years now and still folks die from the flu. So these vaccines are not wiping out the flu, not like they did for polio.

Since the influenza virus mutates so easily and can incorporate DNA from other viruses in the cells of its host species, eradicating the flu is unlikely. It's a very versatile virus and we'd have to tackle it in all of its hosts. The vaccines have to be specific against a strain of flu so each year there's a prediction as to which strain is likely to be prevalent and a vaccine is produced against that strain. This still leaves you open to other strains doing the rounds.

There are also some people who do not gain immunity from a flu vaccine. I turned out to be one of them. I used to work in a hospital lab so we were sent for all sorts of vaccinations including the annual flu jab. Unfortunately I still went down with the strain I was vaccinated against (this is where working in a microbiology lab is convenient - you can easily have tests run). These days I opt for unvaccinated and haven't had flu for years.

Now about Polio. Unlike smallpox, we have not wiped out polio. We have dramatically reduced the incidence of polio but it's still endemic in Nigeria, parts of India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan (it could flare up there due to difficulties of healthcare in a conflict zone). Even in officially polio-free countries there could be cases due to international travel since the polio vaccine effectiveness varies between individuals (even if a person's passport says they've had the vaccine they may not be immune, they'd need an antibody test as well). We're holding it at bay.

(I ended up with stuff on my vaccination record that made my doctor think I was trekking through tropical jungles and paddyfields rather than trekking the corridors of the hospital across town!).

[lord_feldon]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

The HM knows that you are sick with a flu. He predicted that you would get the flu.

If he predicted that people would get the flu from a flu shot, he needs to go back to medical school. Or if he is continually getting tainted vaccines, he should maybe have filed a report or something.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

When we all get the same flu-shot on the same day, and a majority of us proceed to get sick. It seems rather obvious where the sickness came from.

Does it? The flu shot does not have live viruses, so what other source is obvious?

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

Feel free to say that I do not have the needed qualifications to hold a valid opinion.

Okay. Your post is also peppered with quite a few invalid facts, too.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

Today making a new flu vax every year, when there are still questions about the safety of vaccines, seems out of place.

What questions are those?

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

If there is mercury in the vax, or anything else that might trigger autism in even 1 kid out of 10,000, is that truly worth vaccinating everyone?

Who needs facts when you can just ask suspicious questions? If a plane didn't hit the Pentagon, or if Bush knew about it but let it happen, isn't it worth being suspicious of the official story?

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

Some folks will die every year from flu. It happens. And no vaccine will stop these deaths.

Just like some children will still die on playgrounds that use mulch. That doesn't mean we should go surface them with asphalt just because mulch isn't 100% effective.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

We have had flu vaccines for years now and still folks die from the flu.

We have had seat belts for years now and still folks die from car crashes. I guess we should just go around unrestrained.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

I am extremely lucky. I have had nearly every vaccine known to man, and I have survived.

Yeah. Vaccines are major killers, unlike those benign little diseases. (Which makes sense, of course. Vaccines come from big pharma and corporations and chemicals, whereas diseases come from nature.)

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

I know that I am a lucky man. I have only to look at my disabled friends to see how lucky I am.

You have multiple friends who have disabilities proven to be from vaccines? How very statistically odd.

[ET1 (SS)]

Originally Posted by lord_feldon

If he predicted that people would get the flu from a flu shot, he needs to go back to medical school. Or if he is continually getting tainted vaccines, he should maybe have filed a report or something.

It was a 'he' in each case of Hospital Corpsmen that I have recieved shots from, on sub after sub, that I served on during my career.

You know very little about the military, if you think the PCPs have attended medical school.

... You have multiple friends who have disabilities proven to be from vaccines? How very statistically odd.

Me and most other vets too

I suppose it might be odd, when comparing the vet community to our society at large, since vets are a tiny subset.

[DevilBunny]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

And yes I have been real sick [puking, diarrhea, sweats, etc]

Well, one of those is a 'flu symptom.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

Today making a new flu vax every year, when there are still questions about the safety of vaccines, seems out of place. If there is mercury in the vax, or anything else that might trigger autism in even 1 kid out of 10,000, is that truly worth vaccinating everyone?

The mortality rate for 'flu is about 1 in 1000. And that's not counting the long-term problems it can cause for people with pre-existing lung or heart problems (such as, say, asthma). Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

Some folks will die every year from flu. It happens.

True. Some folks don't get vaccinated, some folks don't make antibodies as a result, some folks just get unlucky and catch a different 'flu strain.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

And no vaccine will stop these deaths.

Well, no. But it will stop the deaths of other people who do get vaccinated, do make antibodies, and don't catch minority strains of 'flu.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

So if the flu shots do not really help anyone

That's one heck of a big leap. Cite.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

I have friends who are suffering with 'gulf-war' syndrome. I have had friends who have died from it.

I'm sorry to hear that, but what's it got to do with the price of fish?

One of the possible causes of Gulf War Syndrome is an insufficiently-tested Anthrax vaccine that was made using an experimental immune system stimulant. The only connection between that and the 'flu vaccine is the word 'vaccine'. You might as well keep your children away from paediatricians because the word has the same root as paedophile.

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

I am extremely lucky. I have had nearly every vaccine known to man, and I have survived.

I am extremely lucky. In the early 1900s the leading causes of death were 'flu (yes, really, even before 1918), diphtheria, TB and typhoid. I have had all of those vaccines, and so I have survived.

I'm kinda good with that.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

Friends who have 'Gulf-war' and other 'undiagnosable diseases' do make us all wonder about the 'safety' of our medical industry.

Is there any reason to believe those diseases were caused by unsafe practices or products in the medical industry?

[Pudding Crawl]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

If there is mercury in the vax, or anything else that might trigger autism in even 1 kid out of 10,000, is that truly worth vaccinating everyone?

The vaccine-autism link has been put to rest.
One point to consider is that in the US it is the mercury preservative which is considered responsible for autism. Whereas during the UK vaccination scare, it was a different cause (a type of bowel disease).
I am not as familiar with the US situation, but in our home-grown scare, fear of this imaginary risk of autism resulted in several actual deaths from measles.

This is worth reading for some background on the UK scare.

[Steve Eisenberg]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

When the HM gives flu-shots, they always tell you to expect to get sick with the flu or flu-like symptoms for the following week. Then like clockwork you get sick, as does half the crew.

No blood tests are done, no blood tests are needed. The HM knows that you are sick with a flu.

Under these circumstances, I would suspect mass psychogenic illness. Maybe it's good then that I don't work in the medical industry, since a lot of people would be offended by that diagnosis. However, it actually is a compliment to say that the crewmen might have such a strong team feeling as to be a group in which this phenomenon is possible.

Anyway, my point remains that flu cannot be reliably self-diagnosed.

Feel free to say that I do not have the needed qualifications to hold a valid opinion.

I think we both have the same qualifications. Your opinion is valid, but I just don't agree with it.

[Eddylizard]

Originally Posted by Steve Eisenberg

In light of the OP article's skepticism concerning many flu diagnoses, I ask how you know you had the flu. Did the Navy always give you a blood test, or did you have one of the quicker tests the article debunks? Influenza cannot be self-diagnosed.

You'll have to trust me on this one, but you pretty quickly know whether you have influenza or a bad cold. The bad cold makes you miserable for about a week then you are better. Influenza makes you wish you could die for about two weeks, then impairs you physically for up to six months.

So, what has been said is that flu vaccines may or may not be useless, but they are harmless. I don't see the problem therefore in having one. A hardhat, a seatbelt or an airbag in the relevant setting might not save me, but no harm in using one.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by Eddylizard

You'll have to trust me on this one, but you pretty quickly know whether you have influenza or a bad cold. The bad cold makes you miserable for about a week then you are better. Influenza makes you wish you could die for about two weeks, then impairs you physically for up to six months.

As a child, I had the flu -- judging from the timing, it was probably the Hong Kong strain that was prevalent in 1968. I missed two full weeks of school. I lost a significant portion of my body weight. The first day I went back to school, my mom found me sitting on my bed, out of breath, after having done nothing more than get up and put on my clothes.

[CSGirl]

Originally Posted by Eddylizard

You'll have to trust me on this one, but you pretty quickly know whether you have influenza or a bad cold. The bad cold makes you miserable for about a week then you are better. Influenza makes you wish you could die for about two weeks, then impairs you physically for up to six months.

Well, a cold maybe, but not another virus. When I had the flu at school, I was one of 2 confirmed cases. They were testing everyone who came into the health center with symptoms. There were other people who were also very sick, but didn't actually have influenza.

Mostly I agree with you though- the really horrible thing about the flu is how long the tiredness and achiness and all that last.

[AnglRdr]

FWIW, "HMs" are corpsmen, they aren't doctors. And as wonderful as being corpsmen as they are, they can't make diagnoses, either.

You cannot get the flu from the flu vaccine.

The viruses in the flu shot are killed (inactivated), so you cannot get the flu from a flu shot. [source]

[snapdragonfly]

Originally Posted by Eddylizard

You'll have to trust me on this one, but you pretty quickly know whether you have influenza or a bad cold. The bad cold makes you miserable for about a week then you are better. Influenza makes you wish you could die for about two weeks, then impairs you physically for up to six months.

I have to agree. If you've had both, you KNOW the difference.

Flu comes on like a car wreck - BAM and then you are sicker than a dog. Cold takes a bit to work up to full steam, and generally by mid day you can drug yourself up, rest, and generally pamper yourself enough to feel semi human for a short while. Flu is unrelenting all day and night.

[Lainie]

I've had some nasty respiratory infections (untreated allergies + cold virus + even mild asthma = bad news), but they pale next to the flu.

[rlobinske]

A good article on flu vaccine efficacy that addresses many of the points in The Atlantic article

[Shnoops]

Originally Posted by ET1 (SS)

hmm, interesting.

I am 'on-the-fence' on this issue.

I had to take every vax known to man, often repeatedly, during my 20+ year Naval career.

I have gotten the flu many times from the flu-shots, as have many of my fellow crewman.

Friends who have 'Gulf-war' and other 'undiagnosable diseases' do make us all wonder about the 'safety' of our medical industry.

It makes me wonder what kind of tests they're performing on y'all. [/conspiracy theory]