American jailed in Japan for trying to reclaim his children

[Sister Ray]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc...her.abduction/

Had this custody drama played out in the United States, Christopher Savoie might be considered a hero -- snatching his two little children back from an ex-wife who defied the law and ran off with them.

But this story unfolds 7,000 miles away in the Japanese city of Fukuoka, where the U.S. legal system holds no sway.

And here, Savoie sits in jail, charged with the abduction of minors. And his Japanese ex-wife -- a fugitive in the United States for taking his children from Tennessee -- is considered the victim.

Sister "japan drives me up a wall in this aspect" Ray

[AnglRdr]

I have mixed feelings about this. Obviously, the mother was wrong, however, it appears as if the father did not even approach the Japanese courts, which is stipulated by his attorney:

But Moses, Noriko Savoie's attorney, told CNN that the children's father had other legal options.

Now what is likely to happen is he won't get his kids back because he acted outside the law.

[Sister Ray]

In theory, he had other options. However, the Japanese courts have never really done anything in these cases. There is a case where they said that the dad had legal custody - and proceeded to tell him he could see his kid once a year. Japan does not see parental kidnapping as a crime and foreigner parents are just out of luck.

Sister "knows only one kid that returned, and he did so on his own" Ray

[Dropbear]

Had this custody drama played out in the United States, Christopher Savoie might be considered a hero...

So, if a foreign father entered the US and tried to forcibly abduct his children from their American mother who had failed to return them from access he'd be seen as a hero?

Somehow I don't think so.

He might have greater legal recourse in the US - given the Hague convention but I don't think any country is particularly keen on folks - especially foreign visitors - taking the law into their own hands.

Dropbear

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by Sister Ray

In theory, he had other options. However, the Japanese courts have never really done anything in these cases. There is a case where they said that the dad had legal custody - and proceeded to tell him he could see his kid once a year. Japan does not see parental kidnapping as a crime and foreigner parents are just out of luck.

Sister "knows only one kid that returned, and he did so on his own" Ray

In theory or not, the fact is he acted outside the bounds of the law; it doesn't matter that she did so first.

[Jahungo]

It sounds like the guy had a legitimate complaint...but what he did wasn't the right action. I mean, he actually kidnapped these kids, driving alongside them, jamming them in his car and driving off. It's not like they just went with him at a time when he didn't have legal custody of them, in which case I would be wholly sympathetic to him.

[Sister Ray]

I was just saying that these kids were never going to be returned from Japan. Ever. I don't think what he did was right, but I can understand the frustration in dealing with a country that expects a parent to vanish after a divorce.

Sister "and he had custody in the US, just not in japan" Ray

[Jay Temple]

Originally Posted by Jahungo

I mean, he actually kidnapped these kids

No, he didn't. The very definition of kidnapping is that the person must not have legal custody of the affected persons.

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Jay Temple

No, he didn't. The very definition of kidnapping is that the person must not have legal custody of the affected persons.

Just because he had custody in Tennessee doesn’t mean he had custody in Japan. Despite international and interstate agreements, similar situations can certainly happen elsewhere, as we all know from the news. That's why we have courts.

Japan has radically different family law because Japan has a radically different history and, until relatively recently, a radically different family structure. Now, Japanese family law is overdue for reform, to give at least some kind of compatibility with the laws of its cultural and political allies (as well as with modern Japanese family life). But you can't just take the law into your own hands without accepting the possible consequences.

I have tons of sympathy for the guy but can't figure out what his plan was, why he thought he wouldn't be caught and charged. Maybe he had some reason to think he was on solid legal grounds. (Hopefully, for everyone's sake, he was and will be released.) Otherwise, this kind of thing is rare here and you can't hide or just hop across the border; You're going to get caught. It's hard for me to see this as a rational decision on his part. Also, frankly, I can't understand why anyone who is against kidnapping would condone this -- much less "consider him a hero". I suppose there are some situations in which parents must be their own custodial vigilantes but this wasn't such a situation.

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Sister Ray

Japan does not see parental kidnapping as a crime [...]

This untrue statement appears in the OP article as well. If parental kidnapping isn't a crime, why is he in jail? Japan, unfortunately and unfortunately like many other countries, does not recognize the custodial law of other countries. It's still a crime to kidnap children without the proper custody.

[llewtrah]

Originally Posted by Jay Temple

No, he didn't. The very definition of kidnapping is that the person must not have legal custody of the affected persons.

However he only had "legal custody" under US law which holds no sway in Japan. Therefore in Japan his actions were kidnapping since his US legal custody ruling was not valid over there.

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

Japan, unfortunately and unfortunately like many other countries, does not recognize the custodial law of other countries. It's still a crime to kidnap children without the proper custody.

However, is it possible the US always rules in favour of its own nationals and against the foreign parent in such cases - something the foreign partner might see as unfair? It seems to me any country is likely to rule in favour of its own nationals even if that means not recognising the ruling of another country.

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by llewtrah

However, is it possible the US always rules in favour of its own citizens and against the foreign parent in such cases - something the foreign partner might see as unfair?

No, the US doesn't do so. (Didn't you hear the story of Elian Gonzalez?) The US is a signatory to the convention that says states will honor the custodial law of other countries as well as prohibit parents taking children from their residential states without permission. (The US isn't as strict as some places, which, for example, require a parent traveling abroad alone with a child to have signed permission from the other parent. If it were, this situation wouldn't happen but traveling would be a harder - sometimes impossible - for the millions of parents who don't happen to be abducting our children when we travel.) US law and Japanese law both tend to be independent of international opinion so it's easy to say tu quoque but this is one area where it's the US that's in line with international trends, not Japan.

[llewtrah]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

No, the US doesn't do so. (Didn't you hear the story of Elian Gonzalez?)

Nope, not being USAnian I don't keep abreast of US news stories except those that involve Europe.

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by llewtrah

Nope, not being USAnian I don't keep abreast of US news stories except those that involve Europe.

Ah, that seems a bit of a shame, considering how much you have to say about US news stories. But I can understand; It's a lot more fun to gripe about news than to stay informed. (And I don't mean that as snark. It really is!)

[Just Jocko]

Originally Posted by llewtrah

Nope, not being USAnian I don't keep abreast of US news stories except those that involve Europe.

Except, of course, that the Elian Gonzalez case was all over the news in every country, even Europe, where it was quite the hot topic. To remind you: his Cuban mother (divorced form his Cuban father) tried to flee Cuba to the US by boat with Elian, and she died in the attempt. Elian made it safe to shore where he was taken in by relatives who were US citizens. His Cuban father wanted him back in the US, but the US government refused to allow that, entered the American relatives' home in Florida, forcibly removed the boy and returned him to his father.

[Dara bhur gCara]

Originally Posted by Just Jocko

Except, of course, that the Elian Gonzalez case was all over the news in every country, even Europe, where it was quite the hot topic.

Was it? I reckon I have, for the average UK resident, an unusually high level of engagement in US news and politics (I knew who Irving Kristol was when he died, for example) and I have only a passing knowledge of the Elian Gonzalez case. What's your basis for asserting that it was "quite the hot topic," and whereabouts in Europe are you arguing that it was quite the hot topic?

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by Just Jocko

His Cuban father wanted him back in the US, but the US government refused to allow that, entered the American relatives' home in Florida, forcibly removed the boy and returned him to his father.

I'm pretty sure his Cuban father wanted him back in Cuba.

[Sister Ray]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

This untrue statement appears in the OP article as well. If parental kidnapping isn't a crime, why is he in jail? Japan, unfortunately and unfortunately like many other countries, does not recognize the custodial law of other countries. It's still a crime to kidnap children without the proper custody.

The charges he faces are the same if a non-family member abducted the child. He's not being charged under a specific parental kidnapping statute.

Oh, and with Elian Gonzalez, his father wanted him returned to Cuba, and the US government backed this. However, his US relatives fought this tooth and nail, and once they were ordered to return him and did not, they forcibly removed him.

Sister "that was before this became my big issue, but I still wanted him returned then" Ray

[RivkahChaya]

Originally Posted by Lainie
I'm pretty sure his Cuban father wanted him back in Cuba.

Or, "His Cuban father wanted him back from the US"....

[Just Jocko]

Yep, my bad. Thanks for catching it.