Woman didn’t realize second cold medicine purchase violated drug laws

[A Turtle Named Mack]

When Sally Harpold bought cold medicine for her family, she never dreamed that four months later she would end up in handcuffs.

http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_...246225916.html

[lord_feldon]

If the law said “with intent to manufacture methamphetamine,” no one could be arrested until it was proven that the drug actually was used to make meth, the prosecutor said.

How utterly terrible. It would be such a burden on the legal system if it had to do things like find proof.

“I feel for her, but if she could go to one of the area hospitals and see a baby born to a meth-addicted mother …”

"We're sorry you were arrested, charged, and may still be convicted for something that isn't wrong under any non-moronic moral code, which is only illegal to save us work, but THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!11!!"

[wanderwoman]

Harpold is a grandmother of triplets...

I understand they are trying to increase the sympathy for her by pointing this out, but I think they would be amazed at how many grandmothers are making meth.

I don't know what to think about this. I deal with the aftereffects of meth every day. If it affected only the people who use it, I would be less sympathetic to the limits on these cold products. However, when we take kids out of a house in which people are making or even just using meth, the kids invariably test positive. We find toddlers wandering in the street, and when we go into the house we find the parents were sleeping all day because they were up all night using meth. We remove a kid after s/he's been beaten to a bloody pulp, and we find that the parent is a meth addict and has no impulse control due to the effects of the drug.

Meth manufacturers are now raiding their families' medicine cabinets, asking all their friends and relatives to buy them cold medicine, and offering a discount on meth to customers who bring their own pseudoephedrine. I don't know what the solution is, but it's getting worse and I'm tired of dealing with it. Anybody got any better ideas?

[Gibbie]

This is exactly what I've been afraid of with this law. It's a ridiculous limit for innocent law abiding people. Do you know how easy it is to run through 3 grams in a week with three people in a household all suffering from seasonal allergies? And none of the drugstores tie to each other (outside of chains, all Walgreen's for instance store your purchases centrally) so it is real easy to unintentionally go over the limit. I did once myself at a store that kept logs on paper.

wanderwoman, I know that there's a problem, but entrapping innocent consumers isn't the answer. I am not a meth dealer, I am not a meth cooker, I am not a meth user, I am a housewife with a stuffed up nose and I should be able to go in and purchase a perfectly legal over the counter medication. Ironically, we've also had family send pseudephedrine to us because not only is the limit burdensome, it's becoming increasingly difficult to even buy around here because the pharmacies aren't stocking as much.

I don't know what the solution is, but this is not it. As a side note, one pharmacists told me that products that weren't pure pseudoephedrine, like Zyrtec-D weren't even useable buy meth makers. I don't know if that's accurate or not.

Gibbie

[Eddylizard]

Originally Posted by wanderwoman

{snip} Anybody got any better ideas?

If the problem is really as severe as you say, then - well a cold isn't such a severe disease that it cannot be managed without decongestants (maybe it is for some people with existing respiratory conditions, but they can see a doctor) take the decongestants in question off the OTC market altogether? That's about the only thing that can be done, and I'm not sure I'd agree with it.

Back to the OP, wouldn't it be better, since there is a monitoring system in place to look for a history of repeated purchases over a longer period than a week? I understand the desire of the authorities to shut down labs as quickly as possible but it's an awfully short time to come to the conclusion that it's being used to make meth labs.

Buy two packs/bottles/whatever they come in a week and no more for a reasonable period before or since - you probably have a cold, and your family might have caught it too. Buy one a week for six months+ then you are either the worlds unluckiest, sickest, run down individual, or you are running or supplying a meth lab.

[wanderwoman]

Originally Posted by Gibbie

wanderwoman, I know that there's a problem, but entrapping innocent consumers isn't the answer. I am not a meth dealer, I am not a meth cooker, I am not a meth user, I am a housewife with a stuffed up nose and I should be able to go in and purchase a perfectly legal over the counter medication. Ironically, we've also had family send pseudephedrine to us because not only is the limit burdensome, it's becoming increasingly difficult to even buy around here because the pharmacies aren't stocking as much.

The problem is that not all the people who buy for meth labs realize they are buying for meth labs. They buy for a friend, neighbor, family member who has asked a favor, who they don't even realize has a meth lab.

I don't know what the solution is, but this is not it. As a side note, one pharmacists told me that products that weren't pure pseudoephedrine, like Zyrtec-D weren't even useable buy meth makers. I don't know if that's accurate or not.

If that's true, then perhaps the law should be amended exclude those. However, if that happens you can be sure that someone will figure out a way to use those products to make meth as well.

Originally Posted by Eddylizard

If the problem is really as severe as you say, then - well a cold isn't such a severe disease that it cannot be managed without decongestants (maybe it is for some people with existing respiratory conditions, but they can see a doctor) take the decongestants in question off the OTC market altogether? That's about the only thing that can be done, and I'm not sure I'd agree with it.

Back to the OP, wouldn't it be better, since there is a monitoring system in place to look for a history of repeated purchases over a longer period than a week? I understand the desire of the authorities to shut down labs as quickly as possible but it's an awfully short time to come to the conclusion that it's being used to make meth labs.

Buy two packs/bottles/whatever they come in a week and no more for a reasonable period before or since - you probably have a cold, and your family might have caught it too. Buy one a week for six months+ then you are either the worlds unluckiest, sickest, run down individual, or you are running or supplying a meth lab.

I actually don't think I have done justice to the severity of the problem. It's huge. I am in favor of making pseudoephedrine prescription for this reason. Let the meth makers talk their doctors into writing prescriptions, if they can.

As far as looking at a pattern of purchase, meth makers are running through their families and friends asking them to buy products and trying to avoid anyone buying too much in a short period of time. I think it might be difficult for them to avoid showing a pattern of buying, so looking at the history would be better than arresting unfortunate consumers who just have colds.

[Don Enrico]

Just as with any law, the public has the responsibility to know what is legal and what is not, and ignorance of the law is no excuse, the prosecutor said.

(...)

Pharmacies post “Meth Watch” signs, alerting customers that their purchases of drugs containing ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are being monitored.

Couldn't Indiana law force pharmacists to put a warning label on all PSE products saying:

WARNING!
Contains pseudoephedrine (PSE).
Don't buy other drugs containing PSE before [date of purchase +7 days]!
Indiana law 35-48-4-14.7

The label could be printed and applied on purchase (I assume that all Indiana pharmacies do have a computer and printer on premesis).

That way, people would know that the "Meth Watch" warning signs actually apply to them, and they would have a reference for when to buy the next bottle at the earliest.

Don Enrico

[Johnny Slick]

Okay, but is cooking speed *really* that huge of a problem? My guess is "no". I realize that there are meth-heads out there and they have been known to raid a lot of things to get their fix. However, we really ought to build are laws assuming that the vast, vast majority of Americans don't intend to buy f'ing cold medicine to feed their speed habit.

And yes, I understand that there are harrowing tales of babies addicted to methamphetamine. There are harrowing tales of babies found in dumpsters as well, and we don't ban dumpsters.

[imjustasteph]

Not to mention it can be made without psuedoephedrine, and I, at least, haven't heard about movements to ban or limit sales on other components, either of the with-cold-medicine form, or the other.

Let me have my friggin meds for my cold so I can BREATHE, please, and limit sales of matches or rat poison or whatever.

[ElectricBarbarella]

wanderwoman, I know that there's a problem, but entrapping innocent consumers isn't the answer. I am not a meth dealer, I am not a meth cooker, I am not a meth user, I am a housewife with a stuffed up nose and I should be able to go in and purchase a perfectly legal over the counter medication. Ironically, we've also had family send pseudephedrine to us because not only is the limit burdensome, it's becoming increasingly difficult to even buy around here because the pharmacies aren't stocking as much.

Yes, yes, in spades, yes! I am a frequent purchaser of Zyrtec, rather, I WAS, until I realized this law could affect someone like me. I've since changed my purchase habits to asking the pharmacy to purchase one extra bottle of Loratidine for me so that I can purchase that from them without the restrictions. I already do this for my asthmatic daughter--she has to take claritin in the evenings, so I just buy the one big bottle of Loratidine. Now, I buy two.


(don't need a script for this particular medicine. I can get the script strength by asking for it from my pharmacist. And it's a lot cheaper than zyrtec.)

[Mama Duck]

I realize meth is a big problem. But this is ridiculous. The law as written now makes innocent people either suffer or become criminals in order to give the appearance of doing something about meth. Clearly even with these laws in place, meth is being produced. I won't say the laws is completely ineffectual but you could probably make a case for it. Honestly, I'm not sure what the answer for meth is. It's cheap (relatively speaking) to make, outlawing all the ingredients or even the key ingredients is an undo hardship for innocent people, and meth producers will find a way to make it anyway. Hell, you make all the ingredients illegal or hard to come by and you've driven up the profits. This law is simply wrong-headed, there is no other way to describe it.

“I feel for her, but if she could go to one of the area hospitals and see a baby born to a meth-addicted mother …”

This carries as much weight as "Well, Suzie's mother lets her stay up late!" These two situations aren't as relevant to each other as this person seems to believe.

[catty5nutz]

I take it that there is some kind of data matching system between the different chemists, as I note that the woman purchased the medications at different places.
Pseudoephedrine based medications are quite difficult to get in my country. If a chemist stocks them, they are kept behind the counter, you have to ask, and more often than not, show photo ID.
Because of certain prescription medications I am on, I can't take pseudoephedrine - I am stuck with paracetamol and ibuprofen if I get a cold.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by catty5nutz

I take it that there is some kind of data matching system between the different chemists, as I note that the woman purchased the medications at different places.
Pseudoephedrine based medications are quite difficult to get in my country. If a chemist stocks them, they are kept behind the counter, you have to ask, and more often than not, show photo ID.

In Ohio, they're kept behind the counter. You have to ask for them and produce ID, and your purchase is logged. The state audits these logs periodically, not only to detect purchases beyond the limit, but also to confirm that the logs are being maintained correctly. The ease of the purchase process varies from store to store; some have it computerized, while others do it manually.

You can buy Sudafed (or other brand name decongestant) PE, which has a different active ingredient, OTC in any amount without ID. The catch is that the PE ingredient doesn't work as well, and many people get no relief from it at all -- DD and I don't.

[ElectricBarbarella]

Here in Florida, we have to run our driver's license through the credit card machine thingy. It then registers our information. And we have to sign the receipt stating we "understand the law".

[Banrion]

Here in MA it's behind the counter, and they take your DL, but I have not had any inconvenience purchasing it even with my CT drivers license.

[purpleiguana]

“I feel for her, but if she could go to one of the area hospitals and see a baby born to a meth-addicted mother …”

Yeah, she was just buying cold medicine... we know, we know... it's not like she was making or taking meth. But if she just saw a baby born to a meth-addicted mother... don't you see? She wouldn't dare ever get sick again!

[Enchanting_eyes]

Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella

Here in Florida, we have to run our driver's license through the credit card machine thingy. It then registers our information. And we have to sign the receipt stating we "understand the law".

What happens if your from out of state? I don't know if my licenses can be read through a credit card machine type of thing.

Apparently here in Virginia there is a restriction, but honestly some places don't make you sign anything, it is behind the counter and they will check my ID but I've very rarely and not once in the past year have to sign a piece of paper for cold medicine. Though I will state that it might be the type that I am purchasing, but it is behind the counter.

The thing is, just about any medicine can be used to get high. Take those little pink Benedryl pills, when taken in large amounts can produce a certain high. There is a site that I will not link too, that has accounts from those who take all sorts of drugs and it just amazed me what people will take and in what doses to get high.

My point is, that regardless if a person wants to get high they will find a way. If a person wants to make meth, then they will find a way to get the items needed to make it, regardless of laws. So to me the law is just a little bump in the road for them that makes those who need the medicine more difficult to get.


E*E

[ElectricBarbarella]

Honestly, I don't know what happens with out of state ID's that don't have the bar code black strip scanner thingy on the back (I thought all ID's did). As I'm told, that strip stores your information (like a CC does).. so I honestly just don't know what happens if you are out of state.

[Jahungo]

If they're recording all of this purchasing information, can't they just use the database to see who has recently purchased the relevant compounds and prevent them from buying it again within the restricted period?

Although it might take a little extra work to get the database working this way, it seems easier and better than going around arresting people after the fact.

[Tweetilynn]

Originally Posted by Enchanting_eyes

What happens if your from out of state? I don't know if my licenses can be read through a credit card machine type of thing.

E*E

My Virginia license has a bar code on the back, so perhaps they could be read if we'd ever need meds while traveling. I hope so, of course traveling anywhere lately hasn't been much of an option with finances and such. It never fails that I take a trip and get sick!