Discuss: We rate this year's crop of Rock and Roll Hall of Fame nominees

[TwoGuyswithaHat]

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/2008-12-...-fame-nominees

So who's contributed more to rock and roll? The Chantels or Jimmy Cliff? Abba or Laura Nyro? These artists and eight others are vying for induction into the class of 2010 for theThe Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

What the hell? If they are seriously considering Kiss, then Rush had damn well better be on next year's ballot.

[hoitoider]

Just looking over the list of those already in here:

I'd go with Alice Cooper before Kiss and Yes or the Moody Blues before Genesis. I definitely think the Stooges should be in and probably Abba too. I know some of Laura Nyro's songs but not that much about her. For most of the other ones I think it's too soon, as the article says.

The Hall seems to have ignored British 70's acts like Roxy Music, T-rex, Peter Frampton (or Humble Pie) and Bad Company. Also agree with Rush at least being nominated (or maybe Bachman Turner Overdrive or the Guess Who for examples of other Canadian bands). They seem comparable in talent to Tom Petty or Van Halen.

[DawnStorm]

I read in the paper yesterday that Donna Summers of all singers, was being considered. Nothing against Ms Summers, but I don't consider her music rock.
I once sang karaoke to Stairway to Heaven--that might get me into the Hall some day.

Dawn--Hot Stuff on the Stairway to Heaven--Storm

[Dara bhur gCara]

Originally Posted by DawnStorm

I read in the paper yesterday that Donna Summers of all singers, was being considered. Nothing against Ms Summers, but I don't consider her music rock.

There is a difference between "rock" and "rock and roll," in that the former is generally considered to be loud guitar and drum-based popular music, and the latter is generally considered to refer to all popular music. If you look at the list of inductees, you'll see that many of them, such as Bob Marley, Run DMC and Parliament/Funkadelic, would not in any way be considered "rock."

[RealityChuck]

Should go in ASAP:
Laura Nyro -- one of the genre's greatest songwriters, and a terrific singer
The Stooges -- more for their influence than for their music.

Probably should make it
Kiss -- They were an important step in rock showmanship.
ABBA -- Very popular, even if their music is cloying.
Genesis -- Both versions were in the top rank; it's time for people to stop blaming Phil Collins for not being Peter Gabriel
Hollies -- Minor British Invasion group, but ranks at least with the rest here.

Don't belong
Jimmy Cliff -- No more influential that Desmond Dekker and he's not getting in.
Donna Summer -- good voice, but really not rock. She was just singing up-tempo Broadway show tunes. Makes about as much sense as Ethel Merman.
Chantels -- very minor girl group.
Red Hot Chili Peppers -- almost as overrated musically as Rush. If they didn't play in their underwear, no one would have heard of them.

Unfamiliar
LL Cool J
Darlene Love

[MapleLeaf]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Red Hot Chili Peppers -- almost as overrated musically as Rush.

*brain explodes* The Chili Peppers should most definitely be in the Hall (and Rush too, but I'll forget them for a minute). The Peppers crossed all sorts of rock boundaries, with funk/rap, psychedelic, hard rock, funk rock, Beach-Boys-eque harmonies, and they put on a fantastic live show. They may have been discovered because of the cock-socks, but once they got famous they made some fantastic records. And they currently hold the record for #1 singles on the Billboard charts. They've sold more than 50 million records. What else would they need to do to deserve it?

I think the OP got it right:

Red Hot Chili Peppers: See LL Cool J (although they were eligible last year, but the same thinking applies). Yes, but not yet.

[TwoGuyswithaHat]

Originally Posted by MapleLeaf

They've sold more than 50 million records. What else would they need to do to deserve it?

The Backstreet Boys have sold more than 100 million records. What else would they need to do to deserve it?

[Simply Madeline]

Originally Posted by TwoGuyswithaHat

The Backstreet Boys have sold more than 100 million records. What else would they need to do to deserve it?

Release their first album/single prior to 1984?

[TwoGuyswithaHat]

Originally Posted by Simply Madeline

Release their first album/single prior to 1984?

I was just pointing out that sales alone are not a qualifier for the Rock Hall.

But, if you're going to keep bringing up facts while I'm trying to make a point, I may as well stop posting at snopes all together

[Ramblin' Dave]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Don't belong
Chantels -- very minor girl group.

Actually, they were one of the first and best of the genre, and they paved the way for a lot of the more famous girl groups that followed. "Maybe" is a classic, and it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Unfamiliar
LL Cool J
Darlene Love

LL Cool J is important as far as rap is concerned, but rap ain't rock. (I'd put Run DMC in the don't-belong category for the same reason.) Darlene Love was the often-uncredited talent behind several of Phil Spector's classics. I'm all for inducting her.

[Jay Temple]

Kiss ... Absolutely. I can't believe the question is even debated.

Donna Summer ... I lean toward yes.
Abba ... Undecided. I look at it this way: Donna Summer was the best at what she did. Abba could defensibly be called the best "pure" pop band. (Meaning: a band that no one in a million years would call rock and roll, but which would certainly also not be categorized in any other genre such as country.)

No one else is even a maybe—as a performer. I wouldn't quibble with Laura Nyro as a songwriter.

(original article) Whom do you feel should go in?

Whom? Whom wrote that stupid question? Him should be fired.

ETA: Darlene Love should be in as a member of the Ronettes, not as an individual.

[BamaRainbow]

Originally Posted by DawnStorm

I read in the paper yesterday that Donna Summers of all singers, was being considered. Nothing against Ms Summers, but I don't consider her music rock.
I once sang karaoke to Stairway to Heaven--that might get me into the Hall some day.

Dawn--Hot Stuff on the Stairway to Heaven--Storm

Just a nitpick, but the woman's last name is Summer, not Summers.
As to her rock credentials, she managed to win the very first Grammy for Rock Vocal Performance, Female in 1980 (an award which would then go to Pat Benatar from 1981 to 1984 and Tina Turner for the rest of the 1980s*). The other recipients of the initial Rock Grammy awards were the Eagles (for Best Duo or Group), Bob Dylan (for Best Male) and Paul McCartney and Wings (for Best Instrumental).
As to her music not being "rock", bear in mind that the following are all members of the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" without their music necessarily being "rock and roll": Marvin Gaye; Aretha Franklin; B.B. King; Smokey Robinson; the Supremes; Otis Redding; the Temptations; Stevie Wonder; Bobby Darin; the Platters; the Four Tops; LaVern Baker; John Lee Hooker; Bobby "Blue" Bland; the Isley Brothers; Sam & Dave; Ruth Brown; Etta James; Bob Marley; Al Green; Martha & the Vandellas; Gladys Knight & the Pips; Little Willie John; the Shirelles; the Jackson 5; Parliament/Funkadelic; Lloyd Price; Dusty Springfield; the Staple Singers; Earth, Wind & Fire; the Moonglows; the Flamingos; Michael Jackson; Isaac Hayes; Brenda Lee; the Righteous Brothers; the Dells; Prince; Buddy Guy; Percy Sledge; Miles Davis; Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five; Madonna; and Bobby Womack. A number of these artists are essentially pop or R&B/soul or funk or jazz or rap or reggae (hell, the Staple Singers and Al Green even had major gospel music careers) with rock connections that are tangential at best. Yes, Miles Davis virtually created jazz-rock with his classic LP Bitches Brew and his playing has influenced many rock musicians, but should he be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a performer? And yes, many of the early blues and doo-wop/soul acts were major influences on the development of rock and roll as a musical form but can you honestly listen to the music of the Platters and call that "rock and roll"? If the Platters qualify as worthy of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, then why not Johnny Mathis? Bob Marley in the Hall of Fame? Really? How does he qualify if you're going to exclude Donna Summer? Reggae is no more "rock and roll" than disco is. And, hey, I love Dusty Springfield almost as much as I love Madonna, but I'm not going to describe either woman as "rock and roll" in the same way I would Chrissie Hynde, Patti Smith or Pat Benatar.

*Except for 1988 when there were allegedly not enough contenders to merit separate categories for male and female artists.

[BamaRainbow]

Originally Posted by MapleLeaf

The Chili Peppers . . . currently hold the record for #1 singles on the Billboard charts. They've sold more than 50 million records. What else would they need to do to deserve it?

I think the OP got it right:

Um, on WHICH Billboard chart is this record? The Chili Peppers have never hit #1 on the Hot 100 so they don't hold the record there. (That record is currently held by the Beatles with 20 and Mariah Carey is nipping at their heels--she's topped the chart 18 times to date.)
As far as I can tell, they've topped the Modern Rock chart 9 times which may be a record for that chart, but there've been 5 artists who've managed to earn at least 30 #1 Country hits--George Strait (44), Conway Twitty (40), Merle Haggard (38), Ronnie Milsap (35) and Alabama (32). (Of these artists, Twitty actually hit #1 on the Billboard Hot 100 with "It's Only Make Believe" in 1958 but the song never made the Country chart. He wouldn't hit the country charts until 1966 when he'd officially switched music styles. Of the other 4 on the list, only Milsap ever cracked the Top 10 on the Hot 100. Milsap also had a Top 20 R&B hit in the mid 1960s--a song called "Never Had It So Good" which was written by Ashford & Simpson.)
A number of other Billboard charts have artists who've scored more than 10 #1 hits so the Chili Peppers' achievement isn't really all that impressive in comparison.

[BamaRainbow]

Originally Posted by Jay Temple

ETA: Darlene Love should be in as a member of the Ronettes, not as an individual.

As far as I can tell, Darlene Love was never a member of the Ronettes. What I believe you're thinking about was how Phil Spector used Love's vocals as the lead vocals on several recordings attributed to the Crystals (most notably the #1 single, "He's a Rebel").
Darlene was a member of a girl group called the Blossoms and also recorded as part of Bob B Soxx and the Blue Jeans, as well as having a solo career, but she wasn't part of the Ronettes.

[kitap]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Unfamiliar

Darlene Love

She was the wife of Danny Glover's character in the Lethal Weapon movies.

[Insensible Crier]

Okay, people keep saying that a person or group shouldn't be included because they don't play rock and roll. This is not a requirement to be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a performer. The RRHF website says:

Artists become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first record. Criteria include the influence and significance of the artists’ contributions to the development and perpetuation of rock and roll.

So to be considered, your music only has to have had a significant influence on rock and roll. This is regardless of what musical genre you are actually playing. If someone can show that Frankie Yankovic had a significant influence on rock and roll, then he can be nominated.

[Ramblin' Dave]

Originally Posted by Insensible Crier

So to be considered, your music only has to have had a significant influence on rock and roll.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I am aware of this rule, but I fail to see how rap has had "a significant influence" on rock and roll, which was twenty years old when rap emerged. If anything, it's the other way around in some cases and the two are completely distinct in most.

I could maybe see how Run DMC are eligible because of the way they brought the two together on their version of "Walk this Way," but even that is tenuous. I'm tempted to argue that one song isn't enough, but that wouldn't be fair, because I argued the opposite just the other day on another message board. If anyone's curious, here is what I had to say then about inductions on the strength of one song:

Now, who should be inducted? One name I haven't seen mentioned yet is The Honeycombs. Yeah, they were a one-hit wonder (in the US at least), but what a hit it was. They're too often remembered only as a trivia question, the first band of any note with a female member who played an instrument (beating the Velvet Underground by three years), but that's really not fair. Listen to "Have I the Right" again for the first time - the beat is absolutely primal (created in part by the entire group stomping their feet against the stairs in Joe Meek's studio while he held a microphone beneath the stairwell), that bee-sting guitar riff is instantly memorable, and the simple yet sincere lyrics are as good a summation as any of the timeless experience of the first rushes of true love. They never quite hit that formula again, but once is more than most bands get to that level! Those two minutes and fifty glorious seconds belong in the Hall, thank you very much.

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by MapleLeaf

*brain explodes* The Chili Peppers should most definitely be in the Hall (and Rush too, but I'll forget them for a minute). The Peppers crossed all sorts of rock boundaries, with funk/rap, psychedelic, hard rock, funk rock, Beach-Boys-eque harmonies, and they put on a fantastic live show. They may have been discovered because of the cock-socks, but once they got famous they made some fantastic records. And they currently hold the record for #1 singles on the Billboard charts. They've sold more than 50 million records. What else would they need to do to deserve it?

Produce some decent music? Maybe a song worth listening to? Like Rush, their only outstanding feature is their mediocrity.

[Ali Infree]

Darlene Love belongs--she was an integral part of the Phil Spector Wall o' Sound hits--her voice is terrific, and I would still crawl over broken glass to kiss her high heel pumps, which says more about me than her

Also her Christmas, Baby Please Come Home is one of my favorite Xmas rockers and the composer of the other two, Charles Brown, is in the Hall as a songwriter. [For the record: Please Come Home for Christmas or by New Year's Night and Merry Christmas, Baby.
Her vocals were influential on a lot of other female singers.

I get ABBA, although I am not a fan, they paved the way for more Europop sounds. The Stooges, I am surprised they are not in, represent the roots for punk-garage here in the US.

Laura Nyro definitely belongs, her recording Gonna Take A Miracle with Patti LaBelle's LaBelle group is a potent homage to girl groups, a prized possession, and she was a talented songwriter.

If those of you who don't like the Red Hot Chili Peppers can exclude them for that reason, then I can do the same for KISS--cartoon rockers for the tweeners. I get the idea that the Peppers and LL Cool J may not have had enough time to demonstrate their influence, but I would be fine with both of them. BTW, rap developing in the late 1970s has been influential in rock music as a whole, or is it a question of whether rap is a natural born citizen of rock? (oops...)

Genesis and the Hollies belong in the Hall as does Jimmy Cliff whose influence among rockers here and in the UK has been strong, not like Desmond Dekker, who was a one hit wonder hit here. The Chantels were one of the prototypical girl groups.

I have a much harder time with the second generation or later of heavy metal groups, I had quit listening to them, so I cannot discuss them at all. Donna Summer was the epitome of disco singers with some iconic hits. I didn't listen much to disco, because of the bleeding it caused in my ears, but she seems like a no-brainer.


Ali "can of worms, 50 cents, Lil Wayne" Infree

[MapleLeaf]

Originally Posted by TwoGuyswithaHat

The Backstreet Boys have sold more than 100 million records. What else would they need to do to deserve it?

Wait. Like 'em or hate 'em, they had a huge influence on pop music and probably deserve a spot. Donna Summers' music is gawdawful. So? She's been around a long time and sold a lot of records. What do you think are the qualifiers for a hall-of-fame career? Being "awesome" in some people's opinion?

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Produce some decent music? Maybe a song worth listening to? Like Rush, their only outstanding feature is their mediocrity.

How can "make good music" be a qualifier? Everyone has different musical tastes. How do you define "decent music"?