New H1N1 Vaccine Causes Guillain-Barre

[PallasAthena]

Just got this email from a friend. She's saying the source is reliable (of course), but I don't necessarily buy the story. I edited the email to remove names and I am trying to find out what hospital this is referring to specifically.

Thought this was worth passing along.

Good Morning,

My sister just called, for those of you that don’t know she is a RN in the ER at Baptist. They had a meeting this morning on the H1N1 vaccination, and the doctors at Baptist are advising that their staff and patients NOT get this vaccination. They have had several reports of people getting Guillain-Barre Syndrome. They are also concerned about how fast this vaccination has been developed and the lack of testing that has been done concerning this vaccination. In fact one nurse at Baptist, has a son that took the vaccination and has developed Guillain-Barre’s.

(Guillain-Barré syndrome is a disorder in which the body's immune system attacks part of the peripheral nervous system. The first symptoms of this disorder include varying degrees of weakness or tingling sensations in the legs. In many instances the weakness and abnormal sensations spread to the arms and upper body. These symptoms can increase in intensity until certain muscles cannot be used at all and, when severe, the patient is almost totally paralyzed. In these cases the disorder is life threatening - potentially interfering with breathing and, at times, with blood pressure or heart rate - and is considered a medical emergency. Such a patient is often put on a respirator to assist with breathing and is watched closely for problems such as an abnormal heart beat, infections, blood clots, and high or low blood pressure. Most patients, however, recover from even the most severe cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome, although some continue to have a certain degree of weakness. )

You can read more about it at www.ninds.nih.gov . She also said of course you should ask your doctor about it if you have any questions.

[Die Capacitrix]

In 1976 this was true:

In 1976, vaccination with the swine flu vaccine was associated with getting GBS.

[PallasAthena]

Originally Posted by Die Capacitrix

In 1976 this was true:

I know. I'm wondering if this fear is what prompted this email. But people are claiming that this is true with the current vaccine as well.

[Dr. Dave]

Originally Posted by PallasAthena

I know. I'm wondering if this fear is what prompted this email. But people are claiming that this is true with the current vaccine as well.

The current information sheet for seasonal flu vaccine lists GBS as a rare risk- the increased risk (risk over baseline) is thought to be 1 out of 1 million recipients. I would not be at all surprised if the information sheet for H1N1, when it is available, says the same thing. So there is the grain of truth.

As for GBS being a common risk, or a risk significantly higher with H1N1 immunization versus seasonal flu immunization, I am not aware of any data that support that. As for what was listed in teh email, well, it's possible someone seaid that. The concern about how fast the vaccine was developed- they used the same technique as used to develop seasonal flu vaccine, so it was kind of a plug in- same vaccine , different virus (over simplified description.)

Here is what the CDC has to say:
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/gbs_qa.htm

FWIW, someone can get GBS after getting the flu (no vaccine) also, so there is that.

ETA: a pdf of the influenza (not H1N1) vaccine information sheet. Look under risks.

[Logoboros]

This question is also covered very well in Dr. Mark Crislip's latest Quackcast. The discussion of G-B risk is towards the end of this rather long podcast debunking a number of H1N1 flu myths and alternative medicine scams.

For one thing, there's no proof that even the 1976 vaccine was responsible for inducing G-B, though causal relationship is plausible. But the mechanism for why this might have happened remains unknown (there's also speculation that if the vaccine itself prompted the syndrome -- and not a contaminating agent in the vaccine -- then it's possible that those same patients would also have developed G-B if they got the regular flu, too).

Also, the risk factor is incredibly low. Crislip points out that you're more likely to be in the small percentage of people killed by their car's airbags than to get G-B from a vaccine. And people aren't screaming to have their airbags taken out of their cars.

Crislip also addresses the myth that the vaccine has been "rushed" and isn't sufficiently tested.

--Logoboros

ETA: Also, part of the "fear" complex that links this outbreak to the 1976 swine flu is that ultimately the fears about the virulence of the 1976 strain proved unfounded; the massive vaccination campaign was probably unnecessary, since the outbreak died out fairly uneventfully. That lack of necessity makes the 500 or so G-B cases seem especially egregious. But this year's H1N1 has already killed over 1,500 people and hospitalized far more. It is a clear public health threat and not merely a potential threat (as the 1976 strain was perceived to be).

[woohmom]

It's a known risk of the "regular" flu vaccine. I tend to have a couple patients at the hospital each year that get GBS after getting the flu vaccine.

[PallasAthena]

Oh, man. I wish I could listen to that podcast, but I'm at work!

[woohmom]

Originally Posted by Logoboros

But this year's H1N1 has already killed over 1,500 people and hospitalized far more. It is a clear public health threat and not merely a potential threat (as the 1976 strain was perceived to be).

By the time the vaccine gets out, H1N1 has already spread. Will the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks after the virus has ALREADY gone through communities?

[Sister Ray]

Originally Posted by woohmom

By the time the vaccine gets out, H1N1 has already spread. Will the benefits of the vaccine outweigh the risks after the virus has ALREADY gone through communities?

If it prevents more people from getting sick, yes.

Sister "risk versus benefit" Ray

[Steve Eisenberg]

Originally Posted by PallasAthena

I know. I'm wondering if this fear is what prompted this email.

I'm fairly sure that this is what prompted it: A belief that lying about why the author opposes the vaccine would be more effective than a factual approach.

While the regular flu vaccine became available this month, hospitals do not yet have the H1N1 vaccine -- except for a few clinical trials. The mention of "patients and staff" in the OP makes is clear that they are not talking about the few small trials under way, but about an imaginary situation.

Many hospitals have the word Baptist in their name. The highly, highly likely use of the word "Baptist" is to make is difficult to call the place and confirm that they haven't gotten the vaccine.

EDITED: "We think the first doses of some of the vaccine forms should be available in about three weeks," said Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Dr. Frieden said this on 14 September 2009.

[Logoboros]

Originally Posted by Steve Eisenberg

I'm fairly sure that this is what prompted it: A belief that lying about why the author opposes the vaccine would be more effective than a factual approach.

Are you claiming this is deliberately composed propaganda to make anti-vaccine people look stupid? Or that it is by an anti-vaccine person who has confabulated a "my friend's kid actually got sick" anecdote to sell their anti-vaccine views? I can't quite tell from your wording.

--Logoboros

[woohmom]

Originally Posted by Sister Ray

If it prevents more people from getting sick, yes.

How many people does it have to prevent getting sick to make it worth the risk? And there IS risk. There's also a risk with getting the flu. But just saying, "It prevents flu" doesn't mean it's always worth the risk. I've already had H1N1 and I'm allergic to eggs, so it's not a question for me. But even if that wasn't true, I'd rather have the big risk of getting the flu than even the very tiny risk of getting GBS.
ETA: NY State is making it mandatory for healthcare workers unless they have a history of severe anaphylactic egg allergy. Sounds like a decent idea, it prevents the flu! Nobody wants the flu. Of course, I've not quit breathing yet from eggs, but I'd rather risk the flu than risk this be the time I do quit breathing. It's not cut and dry.

[snopes]

Originally Posted by woohmom

But even if that wasn't true, I'd rather have the big risk of getting the flu than even the very tiny risk of getting GBS.

But one of the risks of getting the flu is death.

[woohmom]

Originally Posted by snopes

But one of the risks of getting the flu is death.

One of the risks of GBS is death. One of the risks of vaccination is anaphylaxis. Which can lead to death. I'll take my chances with the flu.

I'm not an avid anti-vax person. Much the opposite. Seen WAY too many kids with preventable brain damage because mom and dad didn't want to risk autism or were just too lazy to go to the pediatrician or don't believe in medical care. But I'm also against overly aggressive healthcare, and think every intervention should be carefully considered before going forth willy nilly. I just don't think this one is worth it to me, and if you don't have a compromised immune system or respiratory or neuro problems (since H1N1 seems to be hitting hardest folks with neuro problems), if you make it until the vaccine comes out, it may be worth taking your chances without the vaccine.

[kaemka77]

My husband works at the Baylor College of Medicine and in the Methodist Hospital in Houston, TX and they recommend the vaccine to their employees.

Kasia

[Sooeygun]

Originally Posted by snopes

But one of the risks of getting the flu is death.

And there is the risk of passing the flu along to someone else who could die.

[Steve Eisenberg]

Originally Posted by Logoboros

Are you claiming this is deliberately composed propaganda to make anti-vaccine people look stupid?

No, I'm claiming that it is a fabrication written by someone who is against the vaccine.

The UL is of course deliberately vague about which "Baptist" hospital is the one in question. But for what it's worth, from today's news:

Baptist Hospital Makes Flu Shots Mandatory for Staff