Supercats threat to families

[snopes]

“Supercats” closely descended from wild animals represent a danger to other pets and even small children, animal welfare groups fear.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/pe...mily-home.html

[rhiandmoi]

Some friends had a Bengal cat. It was the most terrifying mammal I had ever been in a room with.

[Liza]

We had a litter of cats that were domestic on mom's side, and bobcat on dad's. I was half asleep the night she delivered, but she jumped on the bed next to me. Turns out, she couldn't get them out on her own, they stuck at the head. So she'd push and push, and meow loudly to wake me back up, then I'd pull the kitten out and put it next to her so she could clean them. There were only 4 kittens, which was odd, because her first litter was 8. Then in the morning, I woke completely, and realized what kind of monsters we had brought into this world together. They were 3 times the size of a normal kitten.

Three of the cats looked and to a degree acted just like half scale bobcats, with the disgusting cleanliness issues that go with that. They were outside cats by their choice, and were feral even having been raised by my family, so we let them go. If we had tried to treat them like house cats and forced them to stay inside interacting with people, someone would have gotten hurt.

The forth was solid white, and had markings in gold and red. He had the bobbed tail, and the horrible grooming habits, but he was my mother's lap cat for 7 years. Way too smart for a cat, he got his feelings hurt when a temporary foster popped his nose when he went to eat. From that day on, he didn't eat. And he threw up anything you could force feed him. Since he was such a large (fat) cat, the vet we took him to when they reopened on Monday said he had damaged his gall bladder and liver by losing so much weight so fast, and that there wasn't anything to do but make him comfortable for the week or so he had left. It's ashes are on my mom's dresser.

I had a point. The point is that it isn't so much the animals themselves that are the danger, it is people treating them like domestic cats that are the danger.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

Some friends had a Bengal cat. It was the most terrifying mammal I had ever been in a room with.

Did it scratch and bite?

[rhiandmoi]

Scratch no. Bite yes.

[llewtrah]

Originally Posted by Liza

We had a litter of cats that were domestic on mom's side, and bobcat on dad's. ....
Three of the cats looked and to a degree acted just like half scale bobcats, with the disgusting cleanliness issues that go with that. They were outside cats by their choice, and were feral even having been raised by my family, so we let them go. If we had tried to treat them like house cats and forced them to stay inside interacting with people, someone would have gotten hurt.

The forth was solid white, and had markings in gold and red. He had the bobbed tail, ....

You may have thought they were half bobcat, but what you had were feral cats with the bobbed tail gene. Even in controlled conditions, domestic cats and bobcats cannot produce offspring. Bobcat-crosses are urban legand though some breeders try to pass off bobbed-tail kittens as hybrids. The DNA tests on those breeders' cats were conclusive - the claimed hybrids were wholly domestic cat. Did you have DNA tests done to uphold your statement they were hybrids? Otherwise you've just fallen for a feline UL.

Was the mother solid white? To have a solid white kitten, the mother would have to be solid white because white-masking is a dominant gene that does not exist in the bobcat (albinism is recessive and would not show up unless both parents carried the albinism gene). So I'm sorry, but you were dealing with feral cats and the cleanliness issues would be related to the incontinence that can accompany the Manx-type mutation (Manx-type can be anything from tailless to bobbed tail) due to the effects that mutation has on the spinal nerves.

This really gets my goat - cats get identified as some sort of hybrid when they are nothing of the sort, usually on the basis of kittens have a bobbed tail (a common cat mutation, there are 2 known genes for it plus spontaneous mutations) and there was a bobcat in the area (more likely to eat the female than mate with her). Most people would rather ID something as a hybrid than sit down and research whether such hybrids exist and many are resistant to DNA testing because they'd rather cling to a belief in an impossible hybrid.

The so called supercats in the Telegraph is just bunkum. F1 hybrids (and many of the F2s) should only be owned by experienced people. It describes the Bengal as considered domesticated - this applies to the later generations! The F1 Bengal is half ALC, the F2 is quarter. By F4 it is considered domestic. The same goes for the Savannah - the F1 will be big, the F2 less so and by F4 it is definitely not 3 times the size of a domestic cat as the wild-type genes have been diluted by backcrossing to domestic cats (if you backcross to the wildcat, the next generation is automatically F1 again).

The comments in the Telegraph apply to the F1 & F2 generations and that has probably been artfully edited out of the report. To avoid confusion and the sort of rubbish in the Telegraph, many breeders won't call the F1 and F2 by the breed name. By F4 and later generation you have an attractive spotted domestic cat that's a long way from the wild ancestor. Any kitten, even purebreds such as Persians, not handled in its first weeks is likely to grow up feral - it's called the socialisation window.

Typical journalistic scare story telling only half the story.

[Liza]

Originally Posted by llewtrah

You may have thought they were half bobcat, but what you had were feral cats with the bobbed tail gene. Even in controlled conditions, domestic cats and bobcats cannot produce offspring. Bobcat-crosses are urban legand though some breeders try to pass off bobbed-tail kittens as hybrids. The DNA tests on those breeders' cats were conclusive - the claimed hybrids were wholly domestic cat. Did you have DNA tests done to uphold your statement they were hybrids? Otherwise you've just fallen for a feline UL.

Was the mother solid white? To have a solid white kitten, the mother would have to be solid white because white-masking is a dominant gene that does not exist in the bobcat (albinism is recessive and would not show up unless both parents carried the albinism gene). So I'm sorry, but you were dealing with feral cats and the cleanliness issues would be related to the incontinence that can accompany the Manx-type mutation (Manx-type can be anything from tailless to bobbed tail) due to the effects that mutation has on the spinal nerves.

The cats were not incontinent. They had complete control of their urinary and defecatory functions. They just didn't clean themselves. They were indoor cats from birth until we realized they were not going to socialize, and they used their litterboxes without incident.

Originally Posted by llewtrah

This really gets my goat - cats get identified as some sort of hybrid when they are nothing of the sort, usually on the basis of kittens have a bobbed tail (a common cat mutation, there are 2 known genes for it plus spontaneous mutations) and there was a bobcat in the area (more likely to eat the female than mate with her). Most people would rather ID something as a hybrid than sit down and research whether such hybrids exist and many are resistant to DNA testing because they'd rather cling to a belief in an impossible hybrid.

The feral cats didn't just have a Manx tail. They also had the facial ruff (mutton chops), the markings (from rosettes to the black top/white bottom of the tail), the ears (including the tufts), and the low slung, rear higher than the front body type of a bobcat. They also had the bristly fur texture. I've owned Manx cats in the past, and didn't just jump to the conclusion that these were part bobcat. I would be happy have a correct identification of what the father was, if not a bobcat. Genetic testing wasn't mentioned by the vet as an option at the time. I don't even know that it was available outside of zoos and labs.

Originally Posted by llewtrah

The so called supercats in the Telegraph is just bunkum. F1 hybrids (and many of the F2s) should only be owned by experienced people. It describes the Bengal as considered domesticated - this applies to the later generations! The F1 Bengal is half ALC, the F2 is quarter. By F4 it is considered domestic. The same goes for the Savannah - the F1 will be big, the F2 less so and by F4 it is definitely not 3 times the size of a domestic cat as the wild-type genes have been diluted by backcrossing to domestic cats (if you backcross to the wildcat, the next generation is automatically F1 again).

The Bengal my mom has is average domestic cat size. He's also one of the calmest animals I've ever known. I don't believe I've ever even heard Sabi hiss.

ETA: Just got off the phone with my mom. The white cat was from the first litter the female cat had, and lost his tail to a door. The bones were crushed, and it had to be amputated. That's where his grooming issues came from. After his tail was injured and removed and he had to wear a cone, he stopped cleaning himself. The "bobcats" were from the second and last litter. He also wasn't solid white, I expressed myself poorly. His base was white, and he had pale gold markings, except on his face, where he had the classic tabby "M" in pale red-orange. The color was just on the tips of his hairs. His mom was a part Siamese tortoiseshell (Quin, short for Quinine), colored like this cat. His aunt (CyCy, for Cyanide) looked just like the tortoiseshell point siamese picture here.

So much for my memory. I could have sworn that White Boy was from the second litter.

[llewtrah]

Originally Posted by Liza

The feral cats didn't just have a Manx tail. They also had the facial ruff (mutton chops), the markings (from rosettes to the black top/white bottom of the tail), the ears (including the tufts), and the low slung, rear higher than the front body type of a bobcat. They also had the bristly fur texture. I've owned Manx cats in the past, and didn't just jump to the conclusion that these were part bobcat. I would be happy have a correct identification of what the father was, if not a bobcat. Genetic testing wasn't mentioned by the vet as an option at the time. I don't even know that it was available outside of zoos and labs.

You get this look in many domestic cats, some of which have been marketed (wrongly) as "bobcat crosses" or (more accurately) "bobcat lookalikes" and also in Chaus crosses. Ear tufts are found in many breeds including Abyssinians. Higher rears are also found in many breeds; a number of breed standards state "hind legs longer than fore" or "raised rump". Rosettes are found in a number of genuine hybrids (and their descendents way down the line). Apart from the tail, you could even be describing a Safari cat (Geoffroy's cross). However bobcat crosses are entirely anecdotal as not one claimed cross has stood up to DNA testing (DNA testing is becoming more common because of the various claims of hybrids).

One of the more bobcatty breeds (currently) is the Pixie-Bob - ear tufts, tail, mutton chop, ruff, expression, conformation, but not a bobcat gene in the mix (but linechasing shows some Chausie got in there early on). You can get nicely rosetted bobtails with ear tufts from Bengal x Chaus and these are being developed as a breed.