An apocalypse gone wrong

[Cat Grey]

Since we're coming up on Friday... here's a topic for discussion.

I recently watched Tooth and Nail, one of the Eight Films To Die For. (I have a weakness for bad horror films.) This one turns out to be post-apocalyptic, and basically features a small group of people who are trying to rebuild/retain civilization in an abandoned hospital. It was a reasonably enjoyable film, but I had serious trouble with the premise.

::SPOILERS FOLLOW::

What we have, basically, is a conflict between two groups - the protagonists who are trying to remain civilized, and the savage cannibals who want to have them for dinner. Despite a reasonably suspenseful setup, I had trouble taking the thing seriously; and here's why:

The Apocalypse itself - This is described in an opening monologue. Apparently civilization collapsed because we ran out of gas. The oil that was supposed to be in the ground just wasn't there, and the reserves ran out faster than anyone expected. As a result, three quarters of the human population is now dead, and the southern latitudes are essentially a war zone as the survivors crowd into areas where the climate makes living easier. Our protagonists have remained up north, in a city somewhere, where foraging is more difficult but they're safely isolated (at least until the cannibals show up).
My problem with this - For starters, it's extremely Americanocentric*. A sudden, total lack of fossil fuels would be catastrophic for North America, especially urban areas in the U.S., but there are plenty of areas throughout the world which could adjust with relative ease, and a few that would barely even notice. The idea that three quarters of the human population would die from this strikes me as unrealistic in the extreme.

The Protagonists - Okay, so they all have edgy names - "Viper", "Neon", "Dakota" - and they wear leather jackets and oversized, mismatched clothes and the like, but I just couldn't take them seriously as the survivors of wreck of civilization. They're too...nice.
My problem with this - The story is supposed to be set three years after the collapse (per the opening monologue), but they walk around in the open and make essentially no effort at defense or concealment. (There's actually an argument early on, because one of the characters wants to finish setting up the barricades, and the older guy in charge keeps pulling him away to work on other chores.) They have a pistol, a rifle, and a compound bow with some arrows... and a baseball bat, and that's it. (They never mention ammunition for the guns, which also struck me as unrealistic; I'd expect that to be closely monitored and much discussed.) So naturally, when the cannibals show up, they're essentially defenseless. The entire plot revolves around their transition from Trying To Remain Civilized to the point where they're Doing What It Takes To Survive - which is a problem because anyone who's lasted this long should have reached that point at least two years ago. Add to that, they seem to be foraging for food, when by now there shouldn't be anything yet; they ought to be growing their own food, but nobody even suggests that.

The Left Behind books (which look at the End Times from a Christianish - and unintentionally disturbing - perspective) have a similar problem. They keep presenting these huge dramatic events, which then fail to have any effect on the characters, day to day life, or even the world itself. All the True Christians on Earth disappear, along with everyone under the age of twelve, causing wrecks and plane crashes and other disasters, and thirty pages later it's back to business as usual. Nobody even seems to be grieving. The Antichrist establishes his One World Government, and divides the world into territories which will be run by his lieutenants, but none of the existing nations even seem to notice. Etc.

::takes a deep breath:: So... Here's the part where everyone else gets to play.

Where have you seen the End of the World done wrong? Books, movies, plays... pre-apocalyptic, apocalyptic, post-apocalyptic, or should-have-been-apocalyptic-but-wasn't... Plagues, zombies, natural disasters, overpopulation, alien invasion, divine wrath... whatever strikes your fancy. What was wrong with the scenario? What did they get right? What interesting little details caught your eye, good or bad? What do you look for in a story that features the end of the world?

Cat "The world ended again today. Film at eleven." Grey

* Yes, I just made up that word.

[Malruhn]

In I Am Legend, which I adored after I saw the alternate ending (the regular ending was blech!), I had a major problem with the "fact" that gasoline was still usable and it didn't degrade at all since the epidemic apocolypse. In addition to this, he seemed awfully good at being able to forage for grub - since he was a gifted scientist and all. Fresh veggies grew awfully well in NYC...

In A Boy And His Dog, my major complaint was the fact that it had Don Johnson in it.

[Errata]

Originally Posted by Cat Grey

A sudden, total lack of fossil fuels would be catastrophic for North America, especially urban areas in the U.S., but there are plenty of areas throughout the world which could adjust with relative ease, and a few that would barely even notice. The idea that three quarters of the human population would die from this strikes me as unrealistic in the extreme.

Which places are those? China? India? Europe? All the places with billions of people depend on industrial farming for their daily survival. Even the less developed parts of the world. There are a few extremely remote places left that wouldn't be affected, but those cultures can't support billions of people. We're talking about less than a billion people in the world who don't rely on modern technology for their survival. It's not just a problem for urban areas. It's essential for medicine, heating/cooling/electricity, water, sanitation, etc. Billions would die.

[RCIAG]

My biggest problem with most post-apocalyptic films is the way everyone dresses.

Why does everyone have look like a Max Max character? Would everyone really shave their hair into a mohawk, attach random bits of metal to their clothing, pierce & tattoo or paint themselves like a bad imitation of a Maori tribesman?

They usually use the excuse as it's years & years after the world collapsing event & we've all gone feral or some such nonsense, but I just don't think that's a good excuse to look like human pincushion.

I haven't seen the film version of The Road but that seemed fairly accurate (as far as I could imagine anyway) but then there really weren't many details in that, it was more of a road diary of sorts. I can't WAIT for the movie though.

[Cat Grey]

Originally Posted by Errata

We're talking about less than a billion people in the world who don't rely on modern technology for their survival.

Perhaps I'm overstating the case - or possibly I'm just wrong. What struck me is that I have some friends who live just outside of Stephenville, TX. They have a small farm, with a hand pump for the well. A sudden lack of gasoline would be inconvenient (as they don't actually ride horses), but hardly crippling in itself. The displaced population from nearby Dallas/Fort Worth would be the real danger.

I'm also assuming that the change wasn't overnight; that there were at least a couple of months in which people would realize that the gas was almost gone, and could make alternate arrangements: put together carts, set up local markets, establish community resources.

But if the world-at-large is as reliant on industrial farming as you say it is, then I'm grossly overestimating people's ability to adapt, especially to a relatively sudden change.

[Errata]

Originally Posted by Cat Grey

They have a small farm, with a hand pump for the well. A sudden lack of gasoline would be inconvenient (as they don't actually ride horses), but hardly crippling in itself. The displaced population from nearby Dallas/Fort Worth would be the real danger.

Gasoline is not primarily about transportation. That's how the average consumer uses it personally, but that's not actually the biggest impact that it has on most people's lives. Getting from point A to point B is the least of your problems. Fossil fuels feed into every aspect of our economy, and everyone depends on some of those products.

That farm might get you through the next couple of years, if it weren't for the violence and social unrest, but you may be underestimating all the little ouside resources that feed into even a small farm over time. People who try to live off the grid for extended periods of time have their work cut out for them and they usually end up cheating in some way or another. Do you know how to make a hand pump yourself, starting with mining the ore and going from there? Because nothing lasts as long as you'd hope, and there are so many little tools and resources that you don't think about.

The displaced population from everywhere, not just cities but even small towns, are not a problem that can be handwaved away. They aren't going to lay down and die. And contrary to what Republicans may believe, they aren't all effete college professors with no guns. Your farm's shotgun or even militia stockpile isn't going to hold off an organized group of police or military deciding to ration the food and water.

Originally Posted by Cat Grey

I'm also assuming that the change wasn't overnight; that there were at least a couple of months in which people would realize that the gas was almost gone, and could make alternate arrangements: put together carts, set up local markets, establish community resources.

That's probably the real problem with the premise, is how sudden it is. If it was an overnight change, it really would be a nightmare. But in real life it wouldn't be an overnight change, it would be gradual and predictable. Use would trail off as prices became prohibitively expensive, rather than coming to an immediate halt.

There are alternatives. The problem is that we haven't been serious enough about using them because we've never had to. If the change was gradual, which it would be, then we could adapt. If the change was sudden and unexpected, we'd be screwed.

[Mycroft]

I once saw British low-budget end-of-the world film where the earth had been invaded by robots, leaving 2 survivors who just happened to live next to the radio mast which controlled all the robots. Lots of scenes of 2 people running away from robots (who of course were incapable of killing 2 humans) until they managed to turn off the radio signal disabling all the robots (from memory they just turned the switch off; the budget didn't run to blowing anything up); leading to a final view of the hero and heroine surrounded by stationary robots (but a road full of moving traffic visible in the distance)

[Flagg]

Originally Posted by RCIAG

I haven't seen the film version of The Road but that seemed fairly accurate

hijack:

Holy crap, I had no idea that was even in the works to become a movie. (Yeah, sometimes I feel like I live under a rock) I read The Road when it first came out and it instantly became my favorite...well, second favorite if you know where my user name comes from, post apocalyptic book of all time. I am really hoping they did a good job with it.

[Silas Sparkhammer]

I suppose mentioning Waterworld would be shooting fish in a barrel...

I had some respect, actually, for The Postman. Sure, a lot of it was (in my opinion) wrong, but more seemed right and believable than wrong and dopey. I haven't seen an awful lot of post-apocalypse flicks, but The Postman was one of the few I can think of that emphasized the use of horses. Most of them seem to deal with hot rods instead.

Silas

[Jenn]

Originally Posted by RCIAG

They usually use the excuse as it's years & years after the world collapsing event & we've all gone feral or some such nonsense, but I just don't think that's a good excuse to look like human pincushion.

Intimidation. Same reasons cacti and caterpillars have barbs (even soft ones that don't actually hurt but give that illusion) and why cats and dogs arch their backs, put their fur on end, and show their teeth. They don't have to actually be tough, they just need to look tough enough to make others wary of challenging them.

[RCIAG]

Originally Posted by Flagg

hijack:

Holy crap, I had no idea that was even in the works to become a movie. (Yeah, sometimes I feel like I live under a rock) I read The Road when it first came out and it instantly became my favorite...well, second favorite if you know where my user name comes from, post apocalyptic book of all time. I am really hoping they did a good job with it.

The Road Official Movie site

Trailer is there, comes out Nov. 25th.

[RCIAG]

Originally Posted by Jenn

Intimidation. Same reasons cacti and caterpillars have barbs (even soft ones that don't actually hurt but give that illusion) and why cats and dogs arch their backs, put their fur on end, and show their teeth. They don't have to actually be tough, they just need to look tough enough to make others wary of challenging them.

Good point, never though of it that way.

I still think it's a tad overdone for cinematic reasons more than anything.

[smackmac]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

I had some respect, actually, for The Postman. Sure, a lot of it was (in my opinion) wrong, but more seemed right and believable than wrong and dopey. I haven't seen an awful lot of post-apocalypse flicks, but The Postman was one of the few I can think of that emphasized the use of horses. Most of them seem to deal with hot rods instead.

Silas

I am a huge fan of post-apocalyptic anything, but Silas sums it up here. Horses! The gas will be long gone or disintegrated. There will be no Raod Warrior type stuff after about the couple years or so.

Food is another thing. You constantly see people just eating out of cans for years. They should be growing their own.

But the thing that bugs me the most is when you see nothing but either dirty crusty people or people who look like they just stepped out of a spa. Women with perfect make up and blow-dried hair, men with perfect haircuts and creases in their pants. Not gonna happen.

PS, I loved "The Postman," both the book and movie.

[RCIAG]

Depending on the thing that causes the post-apocalyptic world, we could most likely go back to Little House on the Prairie type living.

Horses, hand pumps for water, candles, fire for heat & cooking, simple log cabins for shelter, etc.

This thread is reminding of that Discovery (or is it TLC?) show Life After People.

[Cat Grey]

Originally Posted by Errata

You may be underestimating all the little ouside resources that feed into even a small farm over time.

It sounds like I'm not just underestimating our reliance on fossil fuels, I'm underestimating it badly. I'm also underestimating just how widespread (and complete) that reliance is in developed and developing nations.

The displaced population from everywhere, not just cities but even small towns, are not a problem that can be handwaved away.

Agreed, and I wasn't trying to; I was assuming that there were areas which were less reliant on oil than the American system is, and still had more alternative resources available. If that actually were the case, I would think that they could absorb the population fleeing from (now uninhabitable) urban centers with a bit less panic and bloodshed. But, as I said, I may be overestimating the system's ability to adapt, and underestimating the sheer size of those urban populations. In other words, the movie's basic scenario may not be as implausible as I thought (though their treatment of it still needed work).

That's probably the real problem with the premise, is how sudden it is. If it was an overnight change, it really would be a nightmare. But in real life it wouldn't be an overnight change, it would be gradual and predictable.

Yes, that was part of my problem with the scenario, too. I just couldn't buy the idea that the shortage occurred overnight, taking us into anarchy over the course of a week (or less). The movie doesn't really offer a timeline, except to say that it's been about three years since the gas ran out.

The displaced population from everywhere, not just cities but even small towns, are not a problem that can be handwaved away. They aren't going to lay down and die. And contrary to what Republicans may believe, they aren't all effete college professors with no guns. Your farm's shotgun or even militia stockpile isn't going to hold off an organized group of police or military deciding to ration the food and water.

This is Texas. Even the effete college professors have guns. The farm would be overrun in about five minutes flat.

And thanks for answering - this is very much the sort of response I was interested in seeing.

Cat "send more zombies" Grey

[Cat Grey]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

I suppose mentioning Waterworld would be shooting fish in a barrel...

I had some respect, actually, for The Postman. Sure, a lot of it was (in my opinion) wrong, but more seemed right and believable than wrong and dopey. I haven't seen an awful lot of post-apocalypse flicks, but The Postman was one of the few I can think of that emphasized the use of horses. Most of them seem to deal with hot rods instead.

Silas

I have fond(ish) memories of Steel Dawn, which at least used wind-powered vehicles and swords. It wasn't a terribly good movie - it would have been vastly improved if any of the supposed swordsmen gave any indication of actually knowing how to use their blades - but it was fun.

[CenTex]

Originally Posted by Cat Grey

Perhaps I'm overstating the case - or possibly I'm just wrong. What struck me is that I have some friends who live just outside of Stephenville, TX.

Not to totally hyjack, but my parents' farm is just outside of Stephenville.

[geminilee]

Originally Posted by RCIAG

Depending on the thing that causes the post-apocalyptic world, we could most likely go back to Little House on the Prairie type living.

Yes, we can. Unfortunately, that style of life can support less people than our present fossil fuel based style. A large amount of people, especially those in cities, would end up starving. In fact, I think that if there was a sudden collapse, more people would die than actually needed to, because of the inefficient decisions made in panic, and knee-jerk reactions.

ETA: After the initial winnowing, though, humans could probably get on just fine for quite a long time even with such a setback, and we would certainly have incentive then to find another energy source.

[katikate]

And now I want to read The Road.

Coincindentally, I'm listening to the audio tape of World War Z, which I actually think is one of the best semi post apocolyptic books. Even the explaination for the zombies, which is really in the previous book, is good.

As for bad movies....I dont know the title, but a comet/meteor strikes earth, and turns everyone into mutants, except for this couple who were having sex in a lead lined movie projector room.

It was pretty awful

[RCIAG]

The Amish have been living off the grid for ages, they'd be waaaaay ahead the post-apocalyptic game!

Has any movie of this genre explored that to any great extent? And not just the Amish, any off-the-grid sorta people doing the post-apocalypse dance?

I wanna say I've recently seen some zombie flick where there was an Amish man involved in helping the living stay alive but I can't recall what it is or if I'm just imagining it or just read it.