"Capitalism is evil," says new Michael Moore film

[snopes]

Capitalism is evil. That is the conclusion U.S. documentary maker Michael Moore comes to in his latest movie "Capitalism: A Love Story," which premiered at the Venice film festival.

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifes...5850F320090906

[ASL]

Well this is a shock. Next thing you know he'll be criticizing the President and taking on car companies. I just hope he doesn't go after firearms.

[snopes]

Can an economic system really be "evil"? Can't any type of system (economic, governmental, religious, or otherwise) be employed to evil ends?

[Logoboros]

Originally Posted by snopes

Can an economic system really be "evil"? Can't any type of system (economic, governmental, religious, or otherwise) be employed to evil ends?

I suppose you could argue that a system can be inherently unjust. That's not quite the same as "evil," but it covers some of the same ground.

--Logoboros

[Mr. Billion]

I wonder what sort of economic system Moore would consider to not be evil.

Communism? Feudalism?

[crocoduck_hunter]

Michael Moore sure is critical of a system that he's befitted quite a bit from.

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter

Michael Moore sure is critical of a system that he's befitted quite a bit from.

That's a surety of his honesty. An hypocrite would favor such a system, solely because it benefitted him.

Silas (Half joking, half serious)

[snopes]

Originally Posted by Logoboros

I suppose you could argue that a system can be inherently unjust.

I wouldn't even go that far. At most, I'd say the (human) administration of a system can be unjust.

[Dactyl]

Originally Posted by snopes

Can an economic system really be "evil"? Can't any type of system (economic, governmental, religious, or otherwise) be employed to evil ends?

If the economic system results in mass atrocities then I believe it can be evil.

If I'm completely honest, I'm not hugely in favour of money and I think St Paul was on the right lines when he described it as the root of all kinds of evil, unfortunately, I can't think of a better system so live with it for as a necessary evil.

[Heavy B]

Originally Posted by Dactyl

If the economic system results in mass atrocities then I believe it can be evil.

If I'm completely honest, I'm not hugely in favour of money and I think St Paul was on the right lines when he described it as the root of all kinds of evil, unfortunately, I can't think of a better system so live with it for as a necessary evil.

Slight nitpick in order to make an important distinction:

The Bible verse actually says that "the love of money" is the root of all evil. Money, in and of itself, isn't bad, but when you treat it as your god, or that in which you put all your hope and trust, then it creates problems.

[Beachlife!]

Originally Posted by Dactyl

If the economic system results in mass atrocities then I believe it can be evil.

If I'm completely honest, I'm not hugely in favour of money and I think St Paul was on the right lines when he described it as the root of all kinds of evil, unfortunately, I can't think of a better system so live with it for as a necessary evil.

It's not about the money though, it's about the aquisition of resources. Money is just vehicle for a trade and as a result becomes an intangible resource. If one were to somehow ban money, some other means of trade would appear, with ultimately the same results.

[Dactyl]

Originally Posted by Heavy B

Slight nitpick in order to make an important distinction:

The Bible verse actually says that "the love of money" is the root of all evil. Money, in and of itself, isn't bad, but when you treat it as your god, or that in which you put all your hope and trust, then it creates problems.

You are completely right and I was aware of this. The verse is often misquoted as "money is the root of all evil" and I concentrated my energy on getting "all kinds of evil" correct and brain burped on the first part.

Originally Posted by Beachlife!

It's not about the money though, it's about the aquisition of resources. Money is just vehicle for a trade and as a result becomes an intangible resource. If one were to somehow ban money, some other means of trade would appear, with ultimately the same results.

Indeed and that's my basic problem and why I accept money as a necessary evil as I can't think of a suitable alternative. I basically don't believe that humanity is altruistic enough to accept contentment in the perfect employ as reward for work.

[Tarquin Farquart]

Originally Posted by Mr. Billion

I wonder what sort of economic system Moore would consider to not be evil.

Communism? Feudalism?

Syndicalism.

[Logoboros]

Originally Posted by snopes

I wouldn't even go that far. At most, I'd say the (human) administration of a system can be unjust.

So the system of chattel slavery was not an inherently unjust system, it was just unfairly managed?

--Logoboros

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by Logoboros

So the system of chattel slavery was not an inherently unjust system, it was just unfairly managed?

Sure! Slavery could be made just: you simply have the slaves and masters trade places occasionally! (Jack Vance came up with this in his sf novel "Big Planet." Everyone was a servant, and, when it was their turn in the rotation, everyone got to be a master, too.)

It would certainly cut down on cruelty to the slaves: I'm not gonna whip you, knowing that yours will be the whip-hand tomorrow!

Silas

[Beachlife!]

I think the problem is one of the size of the economic units we are dealing with, not the particular economic systems. I think one can make any of the isms work 'fairly' on a small scale, but it's impossible to do so on a scale the size of most countries without enforcing draconian and oppressive laws to ensure everything remains fair.

[crocoduck_hunter]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

That's a surety of his honesty. An hypocrite would favor such a system, solely because it benefitted him.

Silas (Half joking, half serious)

Isn't that like saying it's more honest for a person who uses a private jet to fly across the country on a regular basis while living in an enormous mansion that gets its electricity exclusively from coal to be an outspoken critic of greenhouse gas emissions than a person who takes mass transit everywhere from their tiny house that's hooked up to a wind turbine?

[Dropbear]

Economic systems are simply mechanisms for the distribution of goods and services. Different systems work on different values bases and different assumptions in regard to human nature. All economic systems fail when those within them fail to act in accord with the values and beliefs that underpin them. Market systems fail when people are not free to choose, (eg monopolies or collusion between companies) and when they make choices for reasons other than their own best interests (threats, social pressure). Bureaucratically controlled systems fail when people stop following the rules and act in their own or others interests. Communal systems fail when people do not go along with the group ideals.

Capitalism isn't evil - its effects can be evil, but single party state communism can also create evil, as can utopian agrarian socialism. Name me an economic system and I will name you at least 3 ways in which it can be readily subverted and turned to evil.

Dropbear

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

"You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that is good for all people and that something is democracy."

Maybe this statement will somehow make sense in the context of the movie, but... how do you replace capitalism (an economic system) with democracy (a political system)?

It doesn't even make sense. That would be like saying, "We need to eliminate gas-guzzling automobiles and replace them with bananas."

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter

Isn't that like saying it's more honest for a person who uses a private jet to fly across the country on a regular basis while living in an enormous mansion that gets its electricity exclusively from coal to be an outspoken critic of greenhouse gas emissions than a person who takes mass transit everywhere from their tiny house that's hooked up to a wind turbine?

Well, sure. The former has much more to lose.

When a poor person argues for the redistribution of wealth and an end to poverty, it's banal. When a rich person says the same thing, it comes as a much greater surprise. It isn't obviously self-serving.

My own thought is that capitalism, when properly regulated, is a pretty good system. Without regulation, it becomes predatory; it lacks an organic means of resistance to corruption. Capitalism has no morality. Fortunately, it functions rather well when regulated, as the success of the industrialized democracies shows.

Silas ("industrialized democracies" is Silas-speak for "edenic paradise.")