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Old 15 August 2009, 08:09 PM
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Default Woman Gives Birth with Dolphin Present

People were ooohing and ahhhing over this video at another website I frequent. While I love dolphins and can possibly understand the benefits of giving birth in water, I'm not sure why one would want a dolphin present at such a vulnerable time. Also I question the lack of birth fluids and debris in the water. The baby looks pretty darn clean as well.

To me the whole thing looks like a foreign film moment, not a documentary. Does anyone recognize the film or the actors?

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Old 15 August 2009, 08:29 PM
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I'm not saying this is real or not (though it does look real to me), but I do know that they use dolphins now for children/adults with certain mental disorders, birth defects, etc... because they've found the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children.

It's plausible to me that sonar could very well be used to help with contractions or birth. No proof or cites, it just jives with what I know about dolphins and sonar/echolocation and how it works.


(Though, if you look up Sea World and their Discovery Cove, you will find information on using dolphins in therapy)..
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Old 15 August 2009, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
...I do know that they use dolphins now for children/adults with certain mental disorders, birth defects, etc... because they've found the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children.
Do you have a cite for that? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I can't find any references to such treatment that are from a reputable source (all of the ones I've found so far also extol the virtues of homeopathy).
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Old 15 August 2009, 08:55 PM
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Penn and Teller did a whole show on this.
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Old 15 August 2009, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lord_feldon View Post
Do you have a cite for that? I'm not trying to be snarky, but I can't find any references to such treatment that are from a reputable source (all of the ones I've found so far also extol the virtues of homeopathy).
Have you checked Sea World? Their Discovery Cove has a whole program designed for that (It isn't on their website..It might be something you have to sign up for through a therapist, but Discovery Channel did a whole show on this).

I don't know if this is what you mean by homeopathy, but it is alternative medicine :
http://www.altmedicinezone.com/alter...s-in-children/

This is a research article:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Psy...?id=1141830404

And rather than post a whole slew of links, here is the google search for "dolphin therapy and mental disorders"

And I don't know if any of those links will convince you or are what you are looking for.

And I don't exactly consider Penn and Teller reputable sources either. Even if I like them.
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Old 15 August 2009, 09:07 PM
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It waould appear to be a scene from the French movie "Le premiere cri" (The Newborn baby) which appears to be a documentary type thing.

http://translate.google.com/translat...b:IE-SearchBox

ETA - hit the "Video's" tab.

Over and above that, I cannot speak for the veracity of it.

Last edited by Eddylizard; 15 August 2009 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 15 August 2009, 09:23 PM
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France

Well, my French isn't as good as it used to be. This appears to be from a film entitled Le Premier Cri about birth practices around the world. The media guide I linked to refers to a segment filmed in Mexico. The description in French is as follows.

Quote:
L'une dans la mer et lautre dans un delphinareum au milieu des dauphins, avec une sage-femme.
"One in the sea and another in a Delphinareum in the middle of dolphins, with a midwife."
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Old 15 August 2009, 09:24 PM
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If you don't want to search that big google link, here are two that I found, that don't appear to be homeopathic centric:

http://tursiops.org/modules.php?name...rticle&sid=850

http://www.tamarabowman.com/dolphinassisted.pdf (opens in PDF) --this article now makes me remember where I saw this before---Parade Magazine. Not the bastion of news reporting, but not untrue or enquirer type either.

I did see a show on Discovery Channel, but also in the magazine.

BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4465998.stm
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Old 15 August 2009, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
I don't know if this is what you mean by homeopathy, but it is alternative medicine :
http://www.altmedicinezone.com/alter...s-in-children/
That's the first site I saw, which is what made me even more skeptical of the idea that dolphin sonar is an effective treatment for anything.

From that site:

Quote:
Homeopathic medicines are effective and if correct remedy is given for correct symptom then it will be rapid, complete and permanent treatment.
Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
It is indeed a research article, but it doesn't have anything to do with dolphins curing mentally disabled children by echolocating at them (probably because it doesn't work). It doesn't even involve the slightly more sane aspects of dolphin therapy.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Yes, I thought to do several Google searches before I posted. All that's done is confirm my initial thought that it's pseudoscience.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
And I don't know if any of those links will convince you or are what you are looking for.
They're what I was looking for. They were quite illuminating.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
That's a press release from a dolphin therapy group. And it doesn't say anything about echolocation being a proven treatment for mental illness (because it isn't).

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
http://www.tamarabowman.com/dolphinassisted.pdf (opens in PDF) --this article now makes me remember where I saw this before---Parade Magazine. Not the bastion of news reporting, but not untrue or enquirer type either.
Quote:
Cole explains that in the psychological response it can change the stress chemistry of the bloodstream and his theory is that dolphin sonar may possibly affect the firing patterns of neutrons.
"Stress chemistry" is an interesting phrase. I googled it, and the first link that comes up that uses it in a medical context is this one, which is on a website that includes such medically-sound advice as "the final step, of course, is to evolve to the level of Pure cosmic Consciousness."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Quote:
Some have speculated that the ultrasound emitted by dolphins as part of their echolocation system may have a beneficial effect.
"Some have speculated" doesn't equal "they've found the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children." Nobody has "found" it. Some people have made it up because it suits their worldview of "Western" medicine being unnatural and we just need to find "natural" cures to things and doctors and big pharma are evil and autism is caused by vaccines!
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Old 15 August 2009, 10:13 PM
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well, like I said, I'm not out to convince you of it. I'm not a big pharma evil or vaccine=autism person, but even I don't know that I'd go so far as to claim this on the same level as them.

But well, again, I'm not out to convince. The evidence I saw was enough that I'd certainly be of the "it can't hurt to try" group (even if you consider it a psuedoscience, swimming with the dolphins should give anyone a warm feeling. I would love to do it if I had the money). And I would certainly do it if I had a child who needed extra stimulation of some sort and this provided them that stimulation.
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Old 15 August 2009, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
I'm not a big pharma evil or vaccine=autism person, but even I don't know that I'd go so far as to claim this on the same level as them.
Why? They're both backed by the same level of (non-existent) evidence.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
The evidence I saw was enough that I'd certainly be of the "it can't hurt to try" group
You didn't see any evidence, though. At least none that you shared in your links. Several articles of no relevance to the claim plus some that contain speculation aren't even remotely close to being evidence. They are to evidence as homeopathy is to medicine.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
(even if you consider it a psuedoscience, swimming with the dolphins should give anyone a warm feeling. I would love to do it if I had the money).
Lots of things are fun, but that doesn't mean that they have a curative effect.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
And I would certainly do it if I had a child who needed extra stimulation of some sort and this provided them that stimulation.
But would you do it because of the unproven claim that sonar cures mental illness in children?
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Old 15 August 2009, 10:36 PM
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what are you considering unproven though? Are you considering the fact that they haven't said "Hey Dolphins Cure!" yet as being unproven?

As I read further, I pulled a name from one of the articles, a PHd who did her research on this while in vet school (Janelle Nimer, a Phd. candidate at the University of Tennessee).

Google links

Now, I don't exactly know what it is you are getting at--whether you feel autism is something that is made up and not real, or that there is some type of magic pill to cure or help it, or what.. all of the google links under her name returned research (articles, etc..) she had done on this very thing, with austistic children.

I don't know how much more of a cite I can give you, if you won't accept a cite from the Autism News (2nd google link of the big link).

All I know is this: you can believe it to be bunk if you wish, but no drugs are involved, no other research is being done to these kids other than swimming with dolphins, they aren't being used as lab rats, etc... so how exactly can this hurt if the autistic child not only enjoys it, but shows some improvement after the fact?

One father quoted in an article summed up my feeling on it: I don't know if it was the dolphin that did it, but I don't care.

His child was one that did not talk and at age 10 participated in one of these dolphin therapies for a time period, and afterwards, was able to communicate using small words.

Again, there are no drugs involved, the kids are getting exercise and enjoyment out of it and there has been signs of improvement from those kids after these excursions. And all of those signs have been documented in every link I gave you.



I just don't understand why you would feel this is bunk if you are simply bunking it because it isn't scientifically and medically fully proven yet.

Believe me, I'm not a full on homepathic, type person. I just think something like this could be beneficial to the kids.


BTW, I honestly have no horse in this race. I'm not in it to win it with anyone. The links I provided are sufficient enough for someone who is looking for alternative methods that don't involve lots of lab rat stuff or drugs for their kids. So yes, if I didn't want to load my kid up on drugs (who does?) and this had some benefit to her, I would do it.

Last edited by ElectricBarbarella; 15 August 2009 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 15 August 2009, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
what are you considering unproven though?
A total lack of evidence for the claim that "they've found the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Now, I don't exactly know what it is you are getting at--whether you feel autism is something that is made up and not real, or that there is some type of magic pill to cure or help it, or what..
I'm saying that there is absolutely no evidence of any kind that dolphin sonar stimulates anybody's brain. You stated that there was. I asked you for cites for that. You responded with links that either had absolutely nothing to do with that claim or links that talked about people speculating that maybe sonar from dolphins treats autism or other disorders. I pointed out the insufficiency of using these to back up the claim that "they've found the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children."

I don't see what was so hard to follow in my posts, or how you could take it as meaning that I think autism is made up or there is a magic pill to cure it. It's really quite bizarre that someone could find that in my posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
I don't know how much more of a cite I can give you, if you won't accept a cite from the Autism News (2nd google link of the big link).
Really? The "Autism News" is the most authoritative source there is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
All I know is this: you can believe it to be bunk if you wish, but no drugs are involved, no other research is being done to these kids other than swimming with dolphins, they aren't being used as lab rats, etc...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
so how exactly can this hurt if the autistic child not only enjoys it, but shows some improvement after the fact?
Sigh. I didn't say it could hurt. I said that sonar/echolocation isn't proved in the slightest bit to be helping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
One father quoted in an article summed up my feeling on it: I don't know if it was the dolphin that did it, but I don't care.
Are you aware of the nature of the board you are posting on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
His child was one that did not talk and at age 10 participated in one of these dolphin therapies for a time period, and afterwards, was able to communicate using small words.
And it's clear that this is a result of sonar from dolphins? Because that's the claim you made. That "they've found the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
And all of those signs have been documented in every link I gave you.
But none of your links show "the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses" being a causal factor in "stimulat[ing] the brain of these children."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
I just don't understand why you would feel this is bunk if you are simply bunking it because it isn't scientifically and medically fully proven yet.
It's not even slightly proven "yet" that "the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Believe me, I'm not a full on homepathic, type person. I just think something like this could be beneficial to the kids.
But there is no proof of it (that sonar from dolphins does anything to people whatsoever) being the case.

I'm sorry, but you were simply incorrect when you stated that "they've found the sonar/echolocation the dolphin uses stimulates the brain of these children." That is not the case at all.
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Old 15 August 2009, 11:15 PM
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My statement was not at all incorrect because they *have* found that it does, it's just the "they" who have found it, you don't accept as credible. You've stated it smacks of homeopathy, even going so far as to claim someone "made it up" because it "suited their worldview".

You don't like homeopathy, fine. But it works for some, for others no. I've given you all the links I have found on this subject and you've dismissed every one of them, even though they all support each other (minus the one).

You don't want to believe it, great. Told ya, I've no horse in this race. Though I am curious, if someone told you your hypothetical child with autism could be treated either by expensive drugs or by dolphin therapy--which would you choose and why? What of the parent that cannot afford those expensive drugs but has seen improvement in their child with use of this therapy? Would you tell them to stop and use the drugs?

I see this as no different than any other kind of therapy one uses for theraputic purposes. How do you feel about Yoga (what if the doctor said, "Hey, Lord Feldon, I can reduce your stress level, your choice--drugs or yoga?" which would you choose?) Or aromatherapy? Or music therapy? Do you feel they are all bunk too because there is no full on proof of them working?

Or, basically, why can't it be enough to know that some child is benefitting from this therapy--a therapy that does not involve a ton of drugs being pumped into their little bodies?
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Old 15 August 2009, 11:20 PM
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Because how do you know that the child is really benefitting if there haven't been empirical studies? Some parent who has their child swim with the dolphins may really want to believe that their kid is better so maybe they'll see things differently because of their bias than a scientist who's observing.
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Old 15 August 2009, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
My statement was not at all incorrect because they *have* found that it does
No, they haven't. Nobody has found it. Some people have speculated. That is not finding.

You are wrong in your claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
You don't like homeopathy, fine. But it works for some
No, it doesn't (unless they are dehydrated, in which case they're merely stupid for buying such expensive water). Homeopathic medicines are identical in every way to water. That is fact. People who say otherwise are either wrong or lying.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
for others no.
For everyone no.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
I've given you all the links I have found on this subject and you've dismissed every one of them, even though they all support each other (minus the one).
None of them provide anything other than speculation for the idea that sonar/echolocation has a therapeutic effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Though I am curious, if someone told you your hypothetical child with autism could be treated either by expensive drugs or by dolphin therapy--which would you choose and why?
Drugs. There is no backing at all behind sonar from dolphins treating autism. People who choose it are wasting their money and keeping their children from real treatment.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
What of the parent that cannot afford those expensive drugs but has seen improvement in their child with use of this therapy? Would you tell them to stop and use the drugs?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
How do you feel about Yoga (what if the doctor said, "Hey, Lord Feldon, I can reduce your stress level, your choice--drugs or yoga?" which would you choose?)
If the yoga has as much backing behind it as dolphins shouting at me? Drugs.

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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Or aromatherapy?
If the aromatherapy has as much backing behind it as dolphins shouting at me? Drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Or music therapy?
If the music therapy has as much backing behind it as dolphins shouting at me? Drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Do you feel they are all bunk too because there is no full on proof of them working?
I don't know the specifics for each one, but if it's true that there's no proof of them working, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
Or, basically, why can't it be enough to know that some child is benefitting from this therapy
But I don't know that. You don't know that. Nobody knows that (at least not in any of your cites).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
a therapy that does not involve a ton of drugs being pumped into their little bodies?
Are you sure you don't have a horse in this race? That's awfully similar to the alternative medicine/naturopathy/anti-vaccine rhetoric I've seen.

Last edited by lord_feldon; 15 August 2009 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 15 August 2009, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
You don't like homeopathy, fine. But it works for some, for others no.
No it doesn't. It doesn't work for anyone. It's a logical impossibility. The very concept on which homeopathy supposedly functions simply cannot work. It's flawed on a base level. It does not work for anyone, ever, at all.

Quote:
You don't want to believe it, great. Told ya, I've no horse in this race. Though I am curious, if someone told you your hypothetical child with autism could be treated either by expensive drugs or by dolphin therapy--which would you choose and why?
Then it would be more important, not less, to look at possible treatments with a skeptical eye.

Quote:
What of the parent that cannot afford those expensive drugs but has seen improvement in their child with use of this therapy? Would you tell them to stop and use the drugs?
*Shrugs* Any number of ways. Placebo effect. Wishful thinking. Wish fulfillment. Self denial. A parent trying something out on their child is hardly the definition of a controlled double blind rigorous study.

Quote:
I see this as no different than any other kind of therapy one uses for theraputic purposes. How do you feel about Yoga (what if the doctor said, "Hey, Lord Feldon, I can reduce your stress level, your choice--drugs or yoga?" which would you choose?) Or aromatherapy? Or music therapy? Do you feel they are all bunk too because there is no full on proof of them working?
Not to speak for Lord Feldon but yes, I do think they are all bunk.

Quote:
Or, basically, why can't it be enough to know that some child is benefitting from this therapy
Because feeling better is not the same as any real objective medical benefit.

Quote:
--a therapy that does not involve a ton of drugs being pumped into their little bodies?
Right drugs are evil. Damn penicillin, antibiotics, insulin, vaccines and stuff. How dare parents pump those evil substances into their children's little bodies.
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Old 15 August 2009, 11:34 PM
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Because how do you know that the child is really benefitting if there haven't been empirical studies? Some parent who has their child swim with the dolphins may really want to believe that their kid is better so maybe they'll see things differently because of their bias than a scientist who's observing.
And what of their doctors who see this child before and after the therapy, who conclude that since there appears to be no harm done to the child, they see no reason to not continue with it? A doctor may not be a scientist, but if my doctor tells me my choice is between pumping my kid full of drugs that may or may not work and have drastic side affects or swimming with dolphins because he knows that, at the very least, there are no side affects and it doesn't harm the child--I'm siding with the dolphin.

And there has been research done--I just did not google the right terms:

The Upledger Foundation

The American Academy of Pediatrics
(3 links found on that page, 2nd one is a clinical report)

This may be a copy of one of the AAoP links:
http://www.babyzone.com/baby_toddler...pies-guide-pg8

Quote:
The American Academy of Pediatrics issued a paper which summarizes research efforts so far into alternative treatments including diets, vitamins, auditory integration therapy, dolphin-assisted therapy, chelation therapy (a process used for people who have heavy metal poisoning to remove those metals from the body) and more.
And, I don't know how to end this post. Yes, I do. No I don't have a horse in this race. I don't have a SPED child in any way, and I'm not some crunchy mountain mommy who does not vaccinate or do any that you've claimed the anti-people do.

But now I've given you credible links. I don't know how much more credible you want if the American Academy of Pediatrics is stating dolphin therapy works.

Quote:
Right drugs are evil. Damn penicillin, antibiotics, insulin, vaccines and stuff. How dare parents pump those evil substances into their children's little bodies.
Straw Man. You know that is not what I meant. That is a blatant misrepresentation of what I did say. My kids have been vaccinated, have taken anti-biotics and use medicines on a daily basis for asthma control. Those are not the drugs I was referring to and you know it.
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Old 15 August 2009, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella View Post
But now I've given you credible links. I don't know how much more credible you want if the American Academy of Pediatrics is stating dolphin therapy works.
But they didn't say that anywhere. In fact, they said "For most of the aforementioned CAM interventions, there is not enough scientific evidence yet to support or refute their use as treatment for ASDs."

Perhaps I'm just not seeing it. Could you quote the sentence or paragraph where they say that dolphin therapy works? And that it is attributable to the sonar and absolutely nothing else about the experience?
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Old 15 August 2009, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Because how do you know that the child is really benefitting if there haven't been empirical studies? Some parent who has their child swim with the dolphins may really want to believe that their kid is better so maybe they'll see things differently because of their bias than a scientist who's observing.
This certainly happened with my mother. She went to a Catholic "Faith Healer" and announced that she no longer needed either her glasses or hearing aids. She stopped wearing them. I noticed not long after that that she was wearing them again. She never mentioned it. Nor did I.

I have no doubt that she thought she was seeing better and hearing better after that faith healing session. But she really wasn't. She just thought for a little bit that she was. But after a short time of everything being blurry and muffled, she went back to the glasses and hearing aids.
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