47 trapped on 'nightmare' flight

[snopes]

When Link Christin boarded a Continental Airlines flight from Houston to the Twin Cities, he expected to be on the ground in about three hours and ready for a comfy bed.

Instead, he was among 47 passengers who spent the night trapped inside a small airplane, parked at the Rochester airport, complete with crying babies and the aroma of over-used toilets.

http://www.startribune.com/local/east/52798827.html

[Mama Duck]

And letting the passengers into the Rochester airport was not possible because they would have to go through security screening again, and the screeners had gone home for the day.

Then you call them back. The best they could come up with is leaving everyone there?

[WildaBeast]

And letting the passengers into the Rochester airport was not possible because they would have to go through security screening again, and the screeners had gone home for the day.

This doesn't make sense. All the passengers went through security screening in Houston; there is no reason to screen them again. I suspect either the reporter or the passenger the reporter got that information from misunderstood something. I suspect the real issue was that Continental doesn't normally fly to Rochester, so they don't have any employees at there at the gate to handle the flight. Maybe they could have gotten Northwest or American employees to help them out, but maybe they had gone home for the day.

[LizzyBean]

OMG, these poor people. Continental damn well better compensate these people, and well. They're lucky no one went totally berserk on them and started problems.

I can't believe they couldn't have pulled people from other companies to help out. I mean really, how hard is it to let people back off of a plane?

[rhiandmoi]

I once spent 6+ hours on the ground locked inside a plane after a 5 hour flight and 4 hours circling due to weather, a 1 hour touch down and refueling, and then finally landing at my target airport for a connection. This was pre-911 and even back then if you were on the plane, you were on the plane and they couldn't let you off and then let you back on again. According to the crew it had something to do with accompanying your luggage.

I was also delayed for 3 hours once because someone's bags got on the plane but they didn't.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

I was also delayed for 3 hours once because someone's bags got on the plane but they didn't.

This is interesting, because, IIRC, after Pan Am 103, the Gore Commission recommended cross-matching luggage to passengers, but, as I recall, the 9/11 Commission learned that it wasn't happening. Not that having it would have prevented 9/11, but finding out what of the Gore Commission recommendations had been adopted was one are the 9/11 Commission touched on.

[rhiandmoi]

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

This is interesting, because, IIRC, after Pan Am 103, the Gore Commission recommended cross-matching luggage to passengers, but, as I recall, the 9/11 Commission learned that it wasn't happening. Not that having it would have prevented 9/11, but finding out what of the Gore Commission recommendations had been adopted was one are the 9/11 Commission touched on.

The three hour luggage matching incident was in 1990 on an international flight and the destination country was France, so it might have been a French rule vs an US one.

[WildaBeast]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi

This was pre-911 and even back then if you were on the plane, you were on the plane and they couldn't let you off and then let you back on again.

As long as everyone stays within the secure part of the terminal I don't think getting off the plane is a problem (for a domestic flight, anyway). My sister was once on a flight that was diverted to Madison due to weather, coincidentally also a Continental / ExpressJet flight bound for Minneapolis. In her case they got off the plane and Contintntal employees in Madison provided them with snacks while they waited. I think the big difference was that, as mentioned in my last post, the airline actually had employees at that airport. It strikes me as a little odd that they chose to divert to Rochester, my understanding is that airlines generally try to avoid diverting to airports they don't actually serve for pricesely this reason.

I wonder if that "staying within the secure part of the terminal" was part of the problem. I've never been to the Rochester airport, but I know it's rather small. At other airports of that size, the secure area is sometimes just a room big enough to hold the passengers from one flight, and for that reason they only screen the passengers right before boarding. I don't think the La Crosse airport, which is about the same size, even had any bathrooms once you cleared security. In other words, getting off the plane might not have been that much better, unless they did leave the secure area, in which case they wouldn't be able to get back on the plane again.

[WildaBeast]

As the story spread nationwide of the passengers kept for six hours inside a plane sitting on the Rochester International Airport tarmac Friday night and into early Saturday, the airport manager insisted the terminal was open the entire time.

Steve Leqve said the 47 passengers could have gone into the airport.

"The decision for that airplane to stay out on that ramp was strictly Continental dispatch's," he said today, responding to comments from Continental and ExpressJets about the snafu over Flight 2816.

http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmana...p?z=2&a=411342

[RivkahChaya]

It might have been that whole "if your luggage is on the plane, you must be on the plane," thing.

If everybody got off the plane, the luggage would have to be taken off the plane. Some people are going to leave the terminal, and some may even leave the airport. People are going to try to get food. Some may try to get rental cars, or even see if another airline is flying, some people, especially people with small children might decide to go to a hotel, sleep for eight hours, and then figure out how to get to Minneapolis. No one knew how long the delay would be, but it's a pretty good guess that at least one person who got off the plane isn't going to get back on when the weather clears.

Someone is going to have to be responsible for figuring out who, of the original manifest, is and isn't there, and what luggage needs to be taken off the plane. That's difficult when that airline doesn't have regular staff at that airport. Security can keep people not on the original passenger list off the plane, but can't go round up every no-show, and make them board again.

Now, I'm not saying that was for certain what happened, but I can see how that would happen. The airline is worried about being discovered breaching security even if nothing happens, and unsure of even who is allowed to handle the luggage, both for security and insurance purposes. They may have been trying to find some solution-- maybe they were in the process of renting RVs and driving them to the tarmac-- during the many hours the people sweated on-board, and the weather happened to clear before a solution was found.

[jimmy101_again]

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

Someone is going to have to be responsible for figuring out who, of the original manifest, is and isn't there, and what luggage needs to be taken off the plane. That's difficult when that airline doesn't have regular staff at that airport. Security can keep people not on the original passenger list off the plane, but can't go round up every no-show, and make them board again.

It was a tiny plane.

You get one or two people to off load the baggage onto the tarmac. In a pinch the flight crew can do it.

You let the people step out of the plane, collect their bags and walk to the terminal.

(Not that long ago that was how most flights operated.)

(The plane was small enoguh that it probably didn't even need a boarding stairway. The plane can be unloaded anywhere without any special facilities.)

Any bags left on the tarmac get sent to the lost baggage facility at the airport.

When the plane is ready to leave you have the people walk back out to the plane with their bags and reload them.

If people have not left the secure area of the airport than the bags do not need to be rescreened.

Anyone that did leave the secure area must pass through screening again. If screening is closed then those passengers are stuck.

You take off.


It aint rocket science.

[blucanary]

I was redirected to Stuart NY when my plane couldn't land in LaGuardia. The flight crew gave us the option of staying on the flight and waiting how ever long or getting off and be redirected to Philadelphia and flying from there to our destination. I chose to get off and was told if I did I could not get back on the same plane because the flight register was closed and I could be removed from it but not put back on it. I also asked about my bags and was told they would stay on the plane and continue their trip to DC without me. *shrugs* I beat them there so I guess it was true. This was little more than a year ago.

[Beachlife!]

Originally Posted by jimmy101_again

....The plane was small enoguh that it probably didn't even need a boarding stairway. The plane can be unloaded anywhere without any special facilities.....

I wouldn't call it tiny, but it did probably have built in boarding stairs. It was one of these:

Embraer ERJ 145 family

[RivkahChaya]

Originally Posted by jimmy101_again

It aint rocket science.

I didn't say it was, or that it made sense. I'm just saying that I can imagine 100 ways bureaucrats might keep people on a plane for nine hours trying to figure out the "best" way to get them off from the stand-point of insurance coverage, finances, security, logistics, forgetting that the main concern ought to be FAST.

[lord_feldon]

Originally Posted by Beachlife!

I wouldn't call it tiny, but it did probably have built in boarding stairs.

I've seen ERJ-145s that didn't have built-in stairs before. AFAIK, it's an option that not all airlines buy. ETA: According to ExpressJet, they have airstairs on theirs.

[Cervus]

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

It might have been that whole "if your luggage is on the plane, you must be on the plane," thing.

If everybody got off the plane, the luggage would have to be taken off the plane. Some people are going to leave the terminal, and some may even leave the airport. People are going to try to get food. Some may try to get rental cars, or even see if another airline is flying, some people, especially people with small children might decide to go to a hotel, sleep for eight hours, and then figure out how to get to Minneapolis. No one knew how long the delay would be, but it's a pretty good guess that at least one person who got off the plane isn't going to get back on when the weather clears.

Someone is going to have to be responsible for figuring out who, of the original manifest, is and isn't there, and what luggage needs to be taken off the plane. That's difficult when that airline doesn't have regular staff at that airport. Security can keep people not on the original passenger list off the plane, but can't go round up every no-show, and make them board again.

I don't get the whole "if your luggage is on the plane, you must be on the plane" thing. I've traveled on trains and buses. When they stop for a fixed amount of time, people get off and leave the area, get food, use the toilet, wander off, etc. Heck, cruise ships stop for an entire day. The baggage isn't unloaded. Nobody goes around making sure that everyone is loaded back on board before leaving. If you're left behind, too bad. Why do airlines treat this differently?

I've also traveled on over-crowded buses in third-world countries with one driver and two boys keeping track of luggage (and live animals) for 60+ people. These buses stop a lot, and break down a lot. Somehow they manage to keep track of everyone's belongings. It's not that hard. This plane only had 47 people.

I don't see why the situation should be handled any differently than, say, a Greyhound bus that broke down. Most people will just wait; others will want to find alternate methods of transportation - so you give them their luggage and let them be on their way.

[Plurabelle]

Originally Posted by Cervus

I don't get the whole "if your luggage is on the plane, you must be on the plane" thing. I've traveled on trains and buses. When they stop for a fixed amount of time, people get off and leave the area, get food, use the toilet, wander off, etc. Heck, cruise ships stop for an entire day. The baggage isn't unloaded. Nobody goes around making sure that everyone is loaded back on board before leaving. If you're left behind, too bad. Why do airlines treat this differently?

I've also traveled on over-crowded buses in third-world countries with one driver and two boys keeping track of luggage (and live animals) for 60+ people. These buses stop a lot, and break down a lot. Somehow they manage to keep track of everyone's belongings. It's not that hard. This plane only had 47 people.

I don't see why the situation should be handled any differently than, say, a Greyhound bus that broke down. Most people will just wait; others will want to find alternate methods of transportation - so you give them their luggage and let them be on their way.

How many Greyhounds and cruise ships have been blown up via their luggage compartments?

Though, these days, I'm not sure how many people get on with explosives willingly/unwittingly vs the vintage model of getting on with an unknowing explosive.

ETA: To be true I realize the occurence of one attempting to blow up a plane is suffienciently rare that couching it in terms of "people do this vs that" is ridiculous, but I do have to admit I've never heard of a Greyhound bus being subject to domestic terrorism, but that could well be because I never googled it.

[RivkahChaya]

I don't get the whole "if your luggage is on the plane, you must be on the plane" thing. I've traveled on trains and buses. When they stop for a fixed amount of time, people get off and leave the area, get food, use the toilet, wander off, etc. Heck, cruise ships stop for an entire day. The baggage isn't unloaded. Nobody goes around making sure that everyone is loaded back on board before leaving. If you're left behind, too bad. Why do airlines treat this differently?

Because!!!! OMG!!!! 9/11!!!!!! Someone could put a bomb in their luggage, and then not get on the plane, then everyone would get blown up but them!!!!!

[Alchemy]

Also from Airport manager speaks out:

Continental originally referred all questions about the flight to ExpressJets, which actually managed the flight.

Kristy Nicholas of ExpressJets said that the airport did not offer to allow the passengers into the terminal.

Quite the opposite, says Leqve. Docking a plane at a gate is an airline, not airport duty, he said. And he said that the Delta Airline staff repeatedly called Continental's corporate dispatchers Saturday offering to allow the passengers out of the plane.

Rather damning for Continental.

ETA2:

Originally Posted by jimmy101_again

You get one or two people to off load the baggage onto the tarmac. In a pinch the flight crew can do it.

To safely deplane the aircraft they need a gate to taxi to and ground crew to direct them so they don't hit anything. (Although they had both; Delta offered a gate and ground crew so they could deplane.)

[Plurabelle]

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

Because!!!! OMG!!!! 9/11!!!!!! Someone could put a bomb in their luggage, and then not get on the plane, then everyone would get blown up but them!!!!!

The 9/11 hijackers had no checked luggage...sounds like an admission of guilt j/k


I think the whole checked vs unchecked bags thing came from Lockerbie, AFAIK. As far as verifying this, my google skills are failing me. If anyone knows better it would be great to know where the idea of passenger/luggage security came from.

god knows it makes for super stupid security questions