Health care

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Tweetilynn

Even if you're insured in the US, you would still have to pick up these additional costs. Are you saying that because he could have been treated closer to home, but wasn't due to the socialized healthcare?

Pretty much. The hospital in that town did trauma, broken bones and such, but no long term health care treatment.
The nearest place for treatment was a 2.5 hour drive away.

I recently was passing through the same town on my way to visit my father and had a motorcyle accident. I was in the hospital overnight. The next day, they wanted me out of the hospital with a broken clavicle, and lacerated leg that I couldn't walk on, let alone the fact that I was supposed to somehow make my own way home from that town with no car rental agency, no motorcyle (which with broken bone I couldn't ride even if it wasn't totalled), no Greyhound bus except once a day, and oh, yeah, I was stoned out of my gourd on morphine, demerol and such, and really shouldn't have driven anyway. They asked if I had family who could come from my town (300 miles away)to pick me up. I had none, I live alone. My father who I was visiting was in hospital 2.5 hours in the wrong direction, my mother was about 400 miles away. The doctor's were saying they weren't trying to rush me out of the hospital, but here's your jacket and helmet. And I'm not kidding on the last part.

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Canuckistan

I'm also curious as to the specific treatment involved, whether the man had any supplemental insurance, where he lived, and so on. One who lives in a town of 2,000 cannot expect to have the same medical facilities as in a city of 2 million.

I don't know the details of treatment other than it was chemotherapy, 3x a week at the beginning. We lived in a town of 15000 people, with the nearest treatment available 2.5 hours away in a city with about 75000. Supplemental insurance wasn't available for anything like that, he was retired, but still working part time.

[rswarrior]

Oooh, here's a good one regarding my motorcycle accident and hospital (or lack of) stay. I just got a bill in the mail for ambulance service. From the accident scene to the hospital was 10 kms. Standard charge is $80. Which I have to pay, there's no BC Health Care coverage for ambulance service. I flip the invoice over, and there, in black and white, it states that an inter-hospital transfer between hospitals in BC is no charge. In other words, rather than having to call up relatives I had not seen or heard from in years, and have them drive me 500+ kms to home, I could have been transferred to my hometown hospital by ambulance for free? I actually could have been flown to the hospital here as well, because it states transport by ground or air. What part of this makes any sense whatsoever?

The fee charged by the ambulance service is heavily subsidized, in that if I didn't have BC Medical, the fees are $530 for ground service, up to $2746 an hour by helicopter, or $7 per statute mile by plane.

[Canuckistan]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

Supplemental insurance wasn't available for anything like that, he was retired, but still working part time.

That's very telling. It sounds like no one has anything to cover this.

Still, if it's chemo, it might not be surprising that service is mainly in the big cities.

And I don't see this as a shortcoming of public health care. I find it unlikely that every medical service is available in every U.S. town under its current system.

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Canuckistan

And I don't see this as a shortcoming of public health care. I find it unlikely that every medical service is available in every U.S. town under its current system.

No, I'm sure the services aren't offered in every small town either, but with 10X Canada's population, the likelihood of services being closer are much higher, except maybe for places like Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, etc.

My biggest complaint about Canada's healthcare is the cost for the "free" healthcare that many Americans for example, think we have. I was talking to a man in Montana about this very thing. He thought our system was free. I explained to him that combined with how much more I was paying in taxes than he was (we were roughly same age, same job, same pay scale, he took home 30% more than I did) and how much I paid for premiums and supplemental insurance, it worked out to almost $2500 a year for my family of two. For better coverage through his company (no buying crutches for a sprained ankle for example, dental and vision coverage which is an extra supplemental charge in Canada, and 80% prescription reductions) he paid $1800 for a family of four.

Before the flaming starts: yes, I know coverage varies by region, and he'd likely be paying much more for coverage if he lived in say, Chicago, and yes, I kow it was group coverage through his company, not an individual policy.

My job required me to travel in the US extensively, and I was told time and again I needed seperate health insurance to travel in the US. I thought it would be incredibly expensive. The policy I got covered me for accident and sickness in the US, including emergency services and transport for either me back home, or if too sick/injured to travel, for my wife to come to me, including hotel stays and meal reimbursements. It was a whopping $25 a month.
Canada's health care is nowhere near free.

[Natalie]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

No, I'm sure the services aren't offered in every small town either, but with 10X Canada's population, the likelihood of services being closer are much higher, except maybe for places like Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, etc.

Right, but that situation probably wouldn't change if Canada got rid of their health care system, nor would it likely change in the US if we adopt a national health care system.

My biggest complaint about Canada's healthcare is the cost for the "free" healthcare that many Americans for example, think we have.

Honestly, I'm surprised that anyone in the US thinks Canada's healthcare is free. The more informed are aware of the costs, and the less informed can't turn on the television or radio without hearing someone bitching about how Obama's going to tax the crap out of the wealthy to buy abortions for welfare mothers.

Before the flaming starts: yes, I know coverage varies by region, and he'd likely be paying much more for coverage if he lived in say, Chicago, and yes, I kow it was group coverage through his company, not an individual policy.

I'm not trying to flame you, but if you know this why are you suggesting that these two prices are comparable? His employer is picking up a huge part of the tab. Assuming he would be able to get independent coverage in the first place (big, big if) it would be a lot more than $1800 a year. Five-ish years ago, when I was looking for coverage for just me, the lowest rate I could find was about $100 monthly. And that coverage wasn't that great.

[Sylvanz]

Hmmm, I'd love to have your healthcare. I'm damn lucky to have what I do have and it's pretty bad.

P&LL, Syl

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Natalie

I'm not trying to flame you, but if you know this why are you suggesting that these two prices are comparable? His employer is picking up a huge part of the tab. Assuming he would be able to get independent coverage in the first place (big, big if) it would be a lot more than $1800 a year. Five-ish years ago, when I was looking for coverage for just me, the lowest rate I could find was about $100 monthly. And that coverage wasn't that great.

The thing is, our basic health system cost more than he was paying for what we would call supplemental insurance. If we had our employers offering supplemental health insurance, that's an added cost to what I was already paying. In other words, his $1600 a year for a family of four was far better than what I had as basic for a family of two. If I had supplemental insurance, I'd have been paying another minimum of $800 a year, and still would only ne reimburded $300 for glasses or contacts, once every two years. My ex-wife's hi index prescription and basic frames cost over $500. My glasses were about $350 for a weaker prescription. We also would have only been covered for $1500 a year dental, paid 20% for prescriptions, had little or no reimbursement for chiropractic, limited coverage for rehabilitaion or physiotherapy, and no coverage for mental health issues.

From what I learned speaking to people my age, in similar geographic and wage situations, the coverage they would get for $3300 or so a year was far superior to what we get even with supplemental insurance.

[Natalie]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

The thing is, our basic health system cost more than he was paying for what we would call supplemental insurance. If we had our employers offering supplemental health insurance, that's an added cost to what I was already paying. In other words, his $1600 a year for a family of four was far better than what I had as basic for a family of two.

No, it's not. You're not adding his employer's cost to your calculation. His employer isn't buying him supplemental insurance - that's the only insurance he gets, period. And the employer usually picks up at least 50% of the cost, so a conservative estimate of the true cost of his health insurance for a family of 4 is $3600, going off the price you quoted in your original post.

ETA: The employer could be paying for a lot more. When I was offered COBRA (a program that allows people who have lost their employer sponsored health coverage to keep paying for it at the employer's discounted rate) a month of insurance for my single, childfree, early 20s self was $325. So my employer's annual cost for just me was $3900, less my contribution of about $960.

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Natalie

No, it's not. You're not adding his employer's cost to your calculation. His employer isn't buying him supplemental insurance - that's the only insurance he gets, period. And the employer usually picks up at least 50% of the cost, so a conservative estimate of the true cost of his health insurance for a family of 4 is $3600, going off the price you quoted in your original post.

In his case, a family of four by your math is $3600. In my case a family of two, if we got secondary insurance from an employer, was $3300. I'm sure the employer would still be paying more in Canada as well, and if it was 50% like in your example, the employer would be paying another $1600 or so, bringing the total to $4900 for two. Even using your example, the medical insurance is Canada is pricey. And, I haven't even brought the taxes my ex was paying into the equation. About 20% of her income tax went to health care as well, so that would also have to be added to the equation.

My main point is Canada's health care is nowhere near as cheap as most people (including in Canada) think, and it only covers the most basic of care. A person needs to have supplemental coverage to get what most US insurance programs offer as basic coverage. Couple that with lack of adequate facilities, waiting lists for things like MRIs, a lot of surgeries, not just elective surgeries and even just an opportunity to see a doctor (I just made an appointment to see a doctor to clear me to go back to work from my broken collarbone, I was "fit in" for two weeks from the request to see the doctor) and we in Canada are effectively paying fees for a Cadillac, and driving a Chevette.

[Winged Monkey]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

In his case, a family of four by your math is $3600. In my case a family of two, if we got secondary insurance from an employer, was $3300. I'm sure the employer would still be paying more in Canada as well, and if it was 50% like in your example, the employer would be paying another $1600 or so, bringing the total to $4900 for two.

Quick question -- since you're discussing costs in dollars - whose dollars are you using? Admittedly the Us Dollar has been hurting lately, but the US dollar has fluctuated in value from $1.08 Canadian to $1.30 Canadian in the past 120 days alone. Needless to say are you including this fluctuation in these calculations?

-Winged Monkey

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Winged Monkey

Quick question -- since you're discussing costs in dollars - whose dollars are you using? Admittedly the Us Dollar has been hurting lately, but the US dollar has fluctuated in value from $1.08 Canadian to $1.30 Canadian in the past 120 days alone. Needless to say are you including this fluctuation in these calculations?

-Winged Monkey

No, not including the fluctuations in the equation, because it does vary. At the time I was discussing this with the American fellow, the exchange rate was around 25%. Thing is, since I wasn't buying US health care, and he wasn't buying Canadian, it's rather a moot point, since we're buying it with our own dollars in our own countries. The exchange rate would really only matter if I was buying US health care, which, as I mentioned in another post, I got for $25 a year, with the only stipulation that I had to leave the US for Canada once every 2 weeks. This worked out perfectly for the work I was doing.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

[snip] we in Canada are effectively paying fees for a Cadillac, and driving a Chevette.

Based on what measures? Canada pays less of its GDP for healthcare and ranks higher than the US in WHO health care measures.

[lynnejanet]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

My main point is Canada's health care is nowhere near as cheap as most people (including in Canada) think, and it only covers the most basic of care. A person needs to have supplemental coverage to get what most US insurance programs offer as basic coverage. Couple that with lack of adequate facilities, waiting lists for things like MRIs, a lot of surgeries, not just elective surgeries and even just an opportunity to see a doctor (I just made an appointment to see a doctor to clear me to go back to work from my broken collarbone, I was "fit in" for two weeks from the request to see the doctor) and we in Canada are effectively paying fees for a Cadillac, and driving a Chevette.

I take issue with your claim that "Canada's" health care system provides only the most basic of care. First, there is no Canadian health care system. Each province administers its own system, and they're all a little bit different.

In Ontario, much more than the basics are covered. I have never had to pay a cent for doctor's visits, medical tests including CT scans, blood tests, ultrasounds, etc. etc..multiple surgeries for both my husband and myself, hospital care, and the birth of our children.

I am fortunate to have health insurance through my employer that has paid for all of our prescription medications, private room charges in the hospital, casts, orthopedic appliances, massage, chiropractic, psychological, dental and orthodontic care. I do not pay anything out of pocket for this insurance.

The only health care costs that I pay are for doctor's letters, and some amounts that are over and above the cap on my insurance.

My experience is very common. Most people who are employed full-time in Ontario have similar coverage. My god-daughter, who is on social assistance, has a provincial health care plan that covers most of her prescription drug costs.

I have never found that our provincial facilities are substandard, but the number of nurses, and the services they provide, has declined noticeably in the last few years. Neither my husband nor I have ever had to wait more than 6 months for elective, non-emergency surgery. My husband has had several emergency surgeries that were performed within 24 hours of being admitted to the hospital.

Obviously, YMMV, but that is my point. It is impossible to make sweeping statements about the poor quality and value of Canadian health care, because conditions, and opinions, vary across the country.

I am very, very thankful for our health care system.

[Christie]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

My main point is Canada's health care is nowhere near as cheap as most people (including in Canada) think, and it only covers the most basic of care. A person needs to have supplemental coverage to get what most US insurance programs offer as basic coverage. Couple that with lack of adequate facilities, waiting lists for things like MRIs, a lot of surgeries, not just elective surgeries and even just an opportunity to see a doctor (I just made an appointment to see a doctor to clear me to go back to work from my broken collarbone, I was "fit in" for two weeks from the request to see the doctor) and we in Canada are effectively paying fees for a Cadillac, and driving a Chevette.

Don't judge all by your own situation. If I call my family doctor I can see him the same week, often the same day. And frankly what on earth do you mean by "covers the most basic of care"? Have you ever actually had to make use of our health care system for anything more than that broken collar bone (and incidentally did you have to pay for the x-rays or treatment for that break?) Ever been diagnosed and treated for cancer? How much did that set you back financially? What about a stroke? What costs were you facing if you ever had to have surgery? How much do you think it will cost if you (or your spouse) chooses to become pregnant -- both for care during the pregnancy and for the childbirth and/or c-section and follow up care afterwards. Is this basic coverage?

In my own case, most recently, I lost my vision very suddenly last September. I had a cat-scan, two MRI's and a lumbar puncture within days of seeing a specialist (no waiting lists for those or to see the specialist either for that matter). There are no waiting lists when the situation is considering serious to life threatening. That's called prioritizing and it makes sense.

I continue to see a neuro-opthamologist monthly, also my family doctor and another doctor involved with administering some of the medication I am taking. No cost to me. None. If this is basic coverage I'll take it thank you very much.

[Canuckistan]

Originally Posted by rswarrior

My main point is Canada's health care is nowhere near as cheap as most people (including in Canada) think,

Health care is not cheap. Period.

Otherwise, what AnglRdr said.

and it only covers the most basic of care.

What do you mean by basic? Because I consider surgery, regular doctors' visits, most tests, and soon to be pretty comprehensive. If that's basic, that's pretty good. [ETA: Stop that, Christie!]

A person needs to have supplemental coverage to get what most US insurance programs offer as basic coverage.

Cite, please.

Couple that with lack of adequate facilities,

You indicated you live in a small town. Could this be why you think you have inadequate facilities? Because I can tell you that living in Toronto, our facilities here are more than adequate.

waiting lists for things like MRIs, a lot of surgeries, not just elective surgeries and even just an opportunity to see a doctor (I just made an appointment to see a doctor to clear me to go back to work from my broken collarbone, I was "fit in" for two weeks from the request to see the doctor)

Waiting lists are normal in the U.S., too.

and we in Canada are effectively paying fees for a Cadillac, and driving a Chevette.

This is just wrong.

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

Based on what measures? Canada pays less of its GDP for healthcare and ranks higher than the US in WHO health care measures.

Based on the fact that for for my ex wife and I, paying about $3300 a year, we'd have better coverage in insurance in the States than what we were paying here.

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by lynnejanet

I take issue with your claim that "Canada's" health care system provides only the most basic of care. First, there is no Canadian health care system. Each province administers its own system, and they're all a little bit different.

My experience is very common. Most people who are employed full-time in Ontario have similar coverage. My god-daughter, who is on social assistance, has a provincial health care plan that covers most of her prescription drug costs.



I am very, very thankful for our health care system.

By Canada's health care system I am referring to the requirement that each province must provide universal health care. I am aware that each province administers its' own health care. I am also aware that the federal government can and does threaten to withhold health care transfer dollars if a province doesn't toe the line. Example: the Liberal government threatening to penalize Alberta if they allowed private health clinics in the late 90s.

Basic health care includes doctor visits, surgeries, etc, as outlined in each province's guidelines, and as you mentioned, they can vary by province. What I mean when I say basic coverage in the States is that any insurance plan by a private insurer that I have seen in the States also covers what we have to have extended coverage for in Canada. At my current job, I have extended benefits now. I pay approximately $70 every two weeks for single coverage, as I am now divorced. It is about $100 a month for a married couple or family. The company pays a larger portion than that.

People on social assistance in Alberta, when I was living there 3 years ago, had better prescription, vision and dental coverage than many people with extended benefits. And, they didn't pay premiums for health care, either. BC, where I am now living, is one of the last provinces to have to pay MSP premiums.

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Christie

Don't judge all by your own situation. If I call my family doctor I can see him the same week, often the same day. And frankly what on earth do you mean by "covers the most basic of care"? Have you ever actually had to make use of our health care system for anything more than that broken collar bone (and incidentally did you have to pay for the x-rays or treatment for that break?) Ever been diagnosed and treated for cancer? How much did that set you back financially? What about a stroke? What costs were you facing if you ever had to have surgery? How much do you think it will cost if you (or your spouse) chooses to become pregnant -- both for care during the pregnancy and for the childbirth and/or c-section and follow up care afterwards. Is this basic coverage?

In my own case, most recently, I lost my vision very suddenly last September. I had a cat-scan, two MRI's and a lumbar puncture within days of seeing a specialist (no waiting lists for those or to see the specialist either for that matter). There are no waiting lists when the situation is considering serious to life threatening. That's called prioritizing and it makes sense.

I continue to see a neuro-opthamologist monthly, also my family doctor and another doctor involved with administering some of the medication I am taking. No cost to me. None. If this is basic coverage I'll take it thank you very much.

See previous post re:basic health care. Also, I consider emergency treatment as basic care, it's saving lives. From my experience in the US, I have seen no patients in an emergency or accident denied care. Sure, they may be transferred to a Medicare facility instead of a private hospital if they do not have insurance, but I have never seen anyone denied emergency treatment becausde their credit card was at the limit.

Evidently Ontario has a more comprehensive plan than either BC or AB. Yes I have been using the system for more than a broken bone. That's the most recent. I have had sprained ankles...12 hour wait in emergency, paid for my own crutches and tensor bandages, as well as pain medication. I have hypothyroidism, have to see the doctor about every 3 months for blood tests. I usually book my appointment leaving the doctor's office, otherwise there's a chance I won't get in when I need to refill the prescription. For my collarbone, I am supposed to be taking physiotherapy. I can't. A taxi to the town where I can get physio would be about $100 round trip. I have no vehicle at this time, there is no transit. I don't have any family here to drive me. I suppose I could hitchhike, but I also don't have the $35 for initial visit, and $25 each subsequent visit for the therapy, since I have been off work for 2 months. None of that is covered by BC MSP, or my extended health care coverage, and those are the reduced rates for an ICBC claim.

I have been fortunate that I have not had a heart attack, cancer or stroke. My father has had 2 heart attacks and stroke this year. He lives in a large city, and had access to to emergency services. He had to pay his own medications, ambulance service, and slept in the emergency ward as there were no beds available for 3 days. I would think a heart attack would be a priority.

[rswarrior]

Originally Posted by Canuckistan

Health care is not cheap. Period.

I'm not saying it is, obviously. I am saying that for the money I am paying, I would have at least as good, if not better coverage in the States.

You indicated you live in a small town. Could this be why you think you have inadequate facilities? Because I can tell you that living in Toronto, our facilities here are more than adequate.

I haven't always lived in a small town. Only the last 4 years. I have lived in Burnaby, Prince George, Calgary and Lethbridge to name a few of the bigger centers I have lived in. In all locations I have had to wait, usually two weeks or so, for a visit with a family doctor. In Calgary and Lethbridge, there were cliinics you could go to, and it was cheaper than going to emergency, but the waits were not short there either.

Waiting lists are normal in the U.S., too.

Not as long as most locations in Canada. A family friend had to have a heart bypass surgery. His wait was 8 months. He was told to get as much rest as possible, no work, no strenuous activity, etc. He had a manual labor job, so no work. He went to Arizona to stay at a friend's condo for the winter. He called the hospital, asked hoiw much for the surgery, and when it could be done. They could have him in the next morning. Seems to me that's much shorter than 8 months. Also, he had medical insurance valid in the US, so he paid nothing for the surgery.

This is just wrong.

I don't think so. It's my opinion, I realize, but again, if I paid for insurance in the US what I pay in Canada, I would be covered for more treatments, medical services, medical aids, prescriptions, dental and optical coverage than what I get in Canada. And yes, I have asked different insurance companies in the US what my rates would be.