Long subject to urban legend, church opens new center for sesquicentennial

[snopes]

For decades, the former home of Stull United Methodist Church was the destination of thrill seekers around northeastern Kansas, who came to the abandoned building perched above a cemetery enraptured by stories of the old church being one of the “seven gateways to Hell.”

So, first things first, the Stull United Methodist Church is not, nor ever has been, one of the seven gates to the home of Satan.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2009/ma...-stull-church/

[barbrainey]

No United Methodist Church is the gateway to "hell." That is, unless it preaches false doctrines that say it is OK to live a life of sin.



Barb Rainey

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Ancient legends had openings into Hades in various places around the Mediterranean. Herakles went one way, and Odysseus went another.

(Dante cheated, and toured hell in a vision, but he could easily have made his way to one of the gateways of classical myth.)

But what is the textual support for any gateway to hell in the new world? What new revelation describes this? Is this something from the Book of Mormon? Or is it something, like, Dan Brown made up, or what?

Silas

[E. Q. Taft]

A list of haunted places in Kansas cites a legend that a local witch had a child by Satan. The boy was killed and the witch was hung from a tree; the tree fell over and opened a gateway to hell beneath. Supposedly at a later date, a large group of people visited the site on Halloween, and were all found slaughtered in the morning. No dates or references are given.

Wikipedia just says that "The cemetery located in Stull has gained an amount of dubious recognition due to various urban legends referring to the Devil, the occult, and as being a supposed gateway to Hell," and notes that police try to discourage people from going there, particularly on Halloween, and occasionally arrest trespassers.

ETA: This page has much more detail. All the hallmarks of a UL, in that the legends are supposedly more than a century old, but strangely none appeared in print prior to the 1970's. My favorite is the report that Pope John Paul II once ordered the private plane he was flying on to avoid the area.

(No references offhand to where the other six gates are, incidentally.)

[hoitoider]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

But what is the textual support for any gateway to hell in the new world? What new revelation describes this? Is this something from the Book of Mormon? Or is it something, like, Dan Brown made up, or what?

The New Testament passage is "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

So I guess it's more a figure of speech than a physical place.

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by hoitoider

The New Testament passage is "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

So I guess it's more a figure of speech than a physical place.

I've always wondered if that phrase made more sense in the original Greek (?) as opposed to modern English. After all, it isn't the gates of an enemy that we fear, but the forces that issue forth from those gates! Gates, like walls, are defensive.

Does the phrase, perhaps, mean that hell's defenses aren't enough to withstand the might of the church?

Seems like a battle of two defenses -- Tolkien's "Two Towers," so to speak. Your citadel can't conquer my citadel.

But, yeah, the phrase certainly doesn't seem to be saying "There is a place where the doors open and you can physically walk in to Hell." Theologically, every place is such a place! Show me a place where no person has ever sinned, and I'll show you a place where no person has ever stood!

Silas ("As near to heaven by sea as by land.")

[hoitoider]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

Does the phrase, perhaps, mean that hell's defenses aren't enough to withstand the might of the church?

I think it's just a poetic way of saying 'The church will never die.' It's basically hell's offenses aren't strong enough. I'm thinking of satan as 'accuser' as well as the meaning of the word 'offense' as being something immoral or displeasing.

[surfcitydogdad]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

Ancient legends had openings into Hades in various places around the Mediterranean. Herakles went one way, and Odysseus went another.

(Dante cheated, and toured hell in a vision, but he could easily have made his way to one of the gateways of classical myth.)

But what is the textual support for any gateway to hell in the new world? What new revelation describes this? Is this something from the Book of Mormon? Or is it something, like, Dan Brown made up, or what?

Silas

Mormons don't believe in a place called Hell, nor envision a hell such as that imagined in popular culture or common Christian mythology. There is no such reference in the BofM, nor any such literal reference in the Bible, for that matter. Hell is the condition of being permanently away from God's presence. Fire and brimstone, lake of fire, etc, are figurative references.

Mormons do believe in a final judgement, but hell is state of mind and being removed from God, not a place, such as under the earth (where nothing exists but rocks and magma), or some location of cruel torment for eternity. What we would regard as hell would be considered a rather nice place by most standards, the only torment being that you could have done better and been with God and loved ones instead of having your eternal progress blocked (or damned - think of dammed, like a river) due to your own choices.

Nor does the devil have horns or a tail. I imagine Lucifer as a handsome northern or western European-looking man with blue eyes. Definitely a white man.

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by surfcitydogdad

. . . Nor does the devil have horns or a tail. I imagine Lucifer as a handsome northern or western European-looking man with blue eyes. Definitely a white man.

Grin! Actually, it's kind of funny, but some of the devil's popular image -- the tight red suit, the widows-peak-cap, the long skinny tail with the heart-shaped barb -- comes from the art design of Gounod's opera "Faust." (Just as the enormous metal breastplates on Valkyries comes from art design of Wagnerian operas.)

Does the devil have to have a man-shaped image? In another thread, we're asking if God is man-shaped -- does God have hands? Eyes? Lips? Some say that such references are only metaphors, and that God is a spirit, not having any specific shape or form. Mightn't the devil, too, be an amorphous spirit? (The devil is popularly able to change his appearance; does he necessarily have a "true" visage?)

Silas (the devil made me do it)

[surfcitydogdad]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

Grin! Actually, it's kind of funny, but some of the devil's popular image -- the tight red suit, the widows-peak-cap, the long skinny tail with the heart-shaped barb -- comes from the art design of Gounod's opera "Faust." (Just as the enormous metal breastplates on Valkyries comes from art design of Wagnerian operas.)

Does the devil have to have a man-shaped image? In another thread, we're asking if God is man-shaped -- does God have hands? Eyes? Lips? Some say that such references are only metaphors, and that God is a spirit, not having any specific shape or form. Mightn't the devil, too, be an amorphous spirit? (The devil is popularly able to change his appearance; does he necessarily have a "true" visage?)

Silas (the devil made me do it)

I hestitate to get involved in any threads speculating as to the appearance of diety. I'm glad you liked my joke - not entirely fecitious, actually - about "the devil." Great point about how popular culture, including opera, has affected people's ideas about religious concepts, much in the same way that people get confused about whether a quote is from Shakespeare or the Bible.

As you, Silas, might know, Mormons believe that God is a glorified and perfected human being, that "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become." So that answers the question of how the LDS envision diety, and whether he/she/they (our Father and Mother in Heaven) have physical form.

As for Lucifer, he and others (1/3 of the host of heaven/angels/pre-mortal spirits - our brothers and sisters) were cast out of heaven for rebellion, and therefore didn't come with the rest of us to be born into physical bodies, later to be resurrected (both the good and the evil, afterwards to be judged), so he would be a spirit only, as you say. I still like to imagine him as an English or German blond-haired imperialist-type, or an American neo-con, using half-truths to deceive and spread misery. Or, think of the lawyers with "Wolfram & Hart" of the "Angel" TV series, surrendering to and serving evil, "seeing the world as is really is, and finding your place in it," rather than trying to uplift themselves and others through liberty and righteousness. Nasty individual, in an case, trying to drag down others to his fate of being forever cut off from God's presence.

The Raquel Welch or Liz Hurley images of the two "Bedazzled" movies are amusing concepts, but Faustian imagery reeks of non-biblical superstition, like Hieronymus Bosch's "The Garden of Earthly Delights;" fear-based inventions intended to keep ordinary folk from committing the sins their rulers regularly practiced.

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by surfcitydogdad

. . . As you, Silas, might know, Mormons believe that God is a glorified and perfected human being, that "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become." So that answers the question of how the LDS envision diety, and whether he/she/they (our Father and Mother in Heaven) have physical form.

Actually, that's new to me. But that's why I participate in these discussions: best way to learn!

I know some Christians teach that Adam was the "perfect man."

As for Lucifer, he and others (1/3 of the host of heaven/angels/pre-mortal spirits - our brothers and sisters) were cast out of heaven for rebellion, and therefore didn't come with the rest of us to be born into physical bodies, later to be resurrected (both the good and the evil, afterwards to be judged), so he would be a spirit only, as you say.

To function as an earthly agent of evil, the devil would have to have so many "super-powers" -- shape-shifting, illusion, the ability to lie with extraordinary persuasion -- that it almost wouldn't matter whether or not he had a fixed physical form: when he appeared to me, he wouldn't look the same as when he appeared to you.

(There have been several science fiction novels about people who can change shape so as to impersonate just about anyone else. One of the sad moments in many of these stories is when the character confesses that he has forgotten what he "really" looks like.)

(Even more philosophically subtle, all of us change appearance. Profoundly, as we grow older, but in small ways, too, as we gain or lose weight, change our hair, or even as our emotions show in our expressions.)

I still like to imagine him as an English or German blond-haired imperialist-type, or an American neo-con, using half-truths to deceive and spread misery. Or, think of the lawyers with "Wolfram & Hart" of the "Angel" TV series, surrendering to and serving evil, "seeing the world as is really is, and finding your place in it," rather than trying to uplift themselves and others through liberty and righteousness. Nasty individual, in an case, trying to drag down others to his fate of being forever cut off from God's presence.

I do confess to an aesthetic preference for the suave, dapper, stylish devil over the ugly demonic monstrous depictions. Many movie and tv versions have used hair-styling to create subtle upswept points of hair to hint at horns. I kinda like the effect.

The Raquel Welch or Liz Hurley images of the two "Bedazzled" movies are amusing concepts, but Faustian imagery reeks of non-biblical superstition, like Hieronymus Bosch's "The Garden of Earthly Delights;" fear-based inventions intended to keep ordinary folk from committing the sins their rulers regularly practiced.

I've never seen the "Bedazzled" movies, but I am ever fascinated by Bosch. When I was young, his paintings actually filled me with nausea. Now, they are still very discomforting, but I can study them without turning green. Well, maybe just a little green. Extremely disturbing imagery, a kind of genius we can, perhaps, be glad the world is not overmuch filled with.

(I'm very fond of Bertolt Brecht, also, whose dramatic expressions of hellish reality are also very disturbing. But...in small doses. Brecht's devil, surely, would be much like Mack the Knife: suave, smiling, elegant...deadly...)

Silas