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  #201  
Old 06 January 2011, 10:50 PM
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Sister Ray, may I suggest you edit your post to make it clear that the second quote was from Aud 1, not RivkahChaya?

ETA: Nitpicking aside, if Aud is like me, she'll be far more likely to notice your quoting her and to see your request for a cite if her name is on the quote.
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  #202  
Old 06 January 2011, 11:09 PM
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Fight Jenny McCarthy under fire on Twitter over autism study

Jenny McCarthy is taking a beating on Twitter in the wake of news that a 1998 study by Dr. Andrew Wakefield linking the MMR vaccine and autism was "an elaborate fraud."

http://www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/a...ism-study.html
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  #203  
Old 06 January 2011, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by diddy View Post
10 bucks says that if anybody actually bothers to do this (which there is no reason to), they will just reject it anyways and just shift the goalposts again.
Oh, most certainly. It seemed that the guy said (I was reading CC, while jogging, so sometimes I miss a few words), that they would support a study on lab primates.......Has autism, or anything similar every been observed in other apes?
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  #204  
Old 06 January 2011, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
Oh, gawd no. Karyn Seroussi wrote a book in the mid-1990s, detailing what she had done for her autistic son, and discussed the possibility of vaccines as a cause...
That was a really interesting summary of the issue. Thanks!
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  #205  
Old 06 January 2011, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mouse goddess View Post
Oh, most certainly. It seemed that the guy said (I was reading CC, while jogging, so sometimes I miss a few words), that they would support a study on lab primates.......Has autism, or anything similar every been observed in other apes?
No, and there have been studies that have been put together that try to suggest a link between something in vaccines and neurologial damage in primates, but most of them have been very badly done, and they were all essentially trying to show vaccines were bad, somehow.

Sister "you can't win" Ray
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  #206  
Old 06 January 2011, 11:27 PM
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I figured as much...The idea of trying to quantify something like that in apes seemed really iffy to me.
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  #207  
Old 07 January 2011, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
One, I'm not sure their son was "recovered" as if you see any video of him he's pretty obviously still autistic, just higher functioning.
Oh, all I meant was that it was just the "go-to" book for a very long time. There are so many books by parents of autistic children out there now, it's practically a genre, but there's was the first, and for a long time, the only one.
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Two, the ABA research is not as cut and dried as people think; the evidence for it working is still pretty weak.
Sorry; yes, I do know that it's not like an antibiotic and strep throat. It is the only thing which has ever been demonstrated to have any effect in clinical trials. I didn't go into what and how much, because the post was long enough, but certainly given the choice among, say, secretin infusion, chelation, nicotine patches, Lupron, acupuncture, the CF/GF diet, and ABA, I know which one I'd pick.

One of the problems with any therapy is that "developmental disorder" doesn't mean "developmental stasis," and autistic kids grow and develop, just off-track. There's not really enough known about it to make good prognoses, so it can be very hard to tell when a therapy has helped, and when the kid had just undergone normal development.

But the ABA trials were pretty well done, in that the subjects were matched for symptoms, prognoses, and home environments (number of siblings, SAHM, soforth), and someone spent lots of one-on-one time with the control children, just not time doing the specific therapy, to try to control for the fact that just having interaction with someone might help.

IIRC, 50% of the children showed statistically significant improvement over prognosis, and the group scored 40% higher on tests of development after the trial, where they had scored roughly equal before it started. That still did not put the trial group in the normal range, but it was a good gain. After something like two years, more children in the ABA group left their self-contained spec. ed. groups for regular classrooms, albeit some with aids, based on language gains.

That's based on some notes I have from reading Lovaas. I don't have the book, because it's packed, but I wrote something, and that's in my notes, although I could be misreading them, because they're handwritten, and not in complete sentences, so don't hold me to any of that. And that is either one of two different trials, I'm not sure which.

Now, you have to keep in mind that Lovaas, the professional behind ABA, was looking for a therapy to maximize the potential of autistic children, not "cure" them. If the therapy can take kids who would be sitting in the corner spinning the wheels on a toy truck, to playing normally with toys, being able to sort objects, identify preferred foods by name, and dress themselves, that's huge. If the therapy could convince the powers that be that deinstitutionalization would work, because autistic people would be able to develop enough skills to hold menial jobs, that was also huge.

But there are parents who reject that because they want cures.
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  #208  
Old 14 January 2011, 07:27 AM
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Icon02 Junk Science Isn't a Victimless Crime

Vaccines don't cause autism and there was never any proof that they do. Too bad kids had to die while we figured that out.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
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  #209  
Old 14 January 2011, 07:28 AM
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Icon220 Jenny McCarthy's autism fight grows more misguided

So what if a study linking autism and vaccination has been called fraudulent? The "warrior mother" still believes.

http://www.salon.com/news/autism/?st..._autism_debate
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  #210  
Old 14 January 2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
One, I'm not sure their son was "recovered" as if you see any video of him he's pretty obviously still autistic, just higher functioning.
Are you talking about Raun Kaufman? That's the kid in Son-Rise, who New-Age parents claimed to have rescued him "with love," except that love turned out to be a very intense, home-made therapy program similar to ABA therapy, that they did everyday for six to eight hours.

In the videos I just googled, he comes across as completely non-Autistic. He doesn't even seem like he could have Asperger's, though I certainly couls see how someone very high functioning could be well-prepared, and come across as neuro-typical, and would not in a spontaneous interview, but I did find one spontaneous one, where he seemed pretty normal too. Most of the videos of him are plugs for his parents program, which they now market.

By saying that, I am not saying "Here is a program that clearly cures autism." Far from it. First, any program with a sample of one is no good, because some kids who have profound symptoms, and a prognosis of being very low functioning have what amounts to a spontaneous remission, and can function independently as adults, and don't even seem odd to someone in a casual encounter.

It's the same reason you can't have a sample of one in a cancer study, because there are always a few people every year who go into spontaneous remission.

The second thing is, I don't know that the Kaufmans ever had their son diagnosed by a psychiatrist. From reading their book, Son-Rise, it seems that Barry Kaufman came up with the diagnosis after browsing some psychiatry texts. So, Raun my never have been autistic. And even if he did actually have the diagnosis, he would have gotten it in the late q960s, or the early 1970s, and the diagnostic techniques were not as exact. Just because I have read more stories of what seem to be "spontaneous recoveries" of kids diagnosed in the early 1970s, I have to suspect that something was going on, something else, which now goes under a different name, maybe epilepsy with no tonic-clonic seizures, but with long fugue states, or extremely affected kids with ADHD were getting autism diagnoses. Both those conditions are much more likely to become less problematic in adults, the details of which I won't go into, because it isn't relevant, since those are example I pulled out of my netherregions.

However, maybe I misunderstood, and you are talking about Jenny McCarthy's son. I understand her whole story is a sham.
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  #211  
Old 14 January 2011, 01:52 PM
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The trick with these so called "autism cured my son claims" is that they are near impossible to claim otherwise and they are nearly always based on the sole claims of the parents which you have to take at face value. Certainly the child will not know what the parents did to them perhaps for years. And even if we assume that the child saw a doctor (who was not in on a possible con) the doctor cannot legally or ethically admit to anything the parents say.

In McCarthy's case, we actually do have her pediatrician supporting the claims of autism (which I wonder how authoritative his claims are), but we know little of anything substantive. In most cases, we just have to take the word of the parents, something I am always not in favor of.
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  #212  
Old 14 January 2011, 11:02 PM
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There is a book called Fighting for Tony, in which the mother documents her son's development, and reproduces reports from observations and diagnoses of him by developmental psychologists, developmental therapists, psychiatrists.

She began to make adjustments in his diet, since none of the behavior interventions seemed to doing much, and it was a harmless, but radical (radical in the change it would make, not that it was revolutionary).

There was immediate change noticable in just a few days, and people who did not know of the dietary changes commented that he seemed to be making huge gains suddenly. He continued to gain over months, and after a year, had nearly caught up to his age in development after being (IIRC) more than two years behind. His mother thinks his 1-year-younger sister had somethingto do with it, because he imitated her, and went through the developmental stages along with her. But credits mainly removing milk products from his diet.

What's important to note, first, is that she didn't become a crazy anti-milk crusader. Her daughter drinks it. She herself eats cheese, and takes cream in her coffee.

Anyway, the developmental specialists said of her son, not that "His autism was caused by milk, and you cured him," but rather "We diagnosed him incorrectly; his symptoms looked like autism, but it turned out he had some unusual manifestation of a casein allergy that caused neurological symptoms. He is not autistic, and never was."

That last bit is really important. Any child who is "miraculously" cured, which is to say, becomes completely neurotypical, with no residua, as the result of a single-factor treatment, like chelation, or nicotine patches, or Lupron, or a casein-free, gluten-free diet, was probably misdiagnosed.

I can't say what they did have, but I don't have to. The problem with presenting an idea like that to anti-vaxers is, that unless you can answer every tangential question they bring up, they think you must be wrong. But who knows what a small subset of children diagnosed as autistic might actually have? it may be a disorder that is so rare, it doesn't have a name. When we learn more about autism, and have begun to separate it into types, so that we can predict things (example I'm making up of something that could happen), like that kids who play with toys normally (the way the manufacturers intended) are the ones likely to become hyperlexic, or the ones with obsessive behaviors very early in childhood are likely to eventually develop useful speech, but it doesn't appear until the age of seven or eight.

When we have data like that, then it become clearer that there are some kids who have autistic like behaviors, but aren't really, and even what specific kinds ov interventions, like a special diet, might help those kids.

To repeat: any kid who normalizes quickly after a single-factor intervention was not autistic; he was misdiagnosed.
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  #213  
Old 14 January 2011, 11:45 PM
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is it possible for a vaccinated kindergartner to come down with pertussis? My DD's school has had a few cases, and I'm wondering if their parents are non-vaccinators, or if they were just unlucky.
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  #214  
Old 14 January 2011, 11:50 PM
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Thimerosal was discontinued in 1992. My oldest (who is autistic) was born in 2004. Someone explain that to me. (I couldn't read the link... it redirected me somewhere else.) I have a hard time believing there is a direct link.
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  #215  
Old 15 January 2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouse goddess View Post
is it possible for a vaccinated kindergartner to come down with pertussis? My DD's school has had a few cases, and I'm wondering if their parents are non-vaccinators, or if they were just unlucky.
Very rarely, a kid doesn't "hold a titer," which means that a post-vaccincation blood test doesn't show enough-- or any of the anti-body. It's usually sui generis, and uncommon enough that with herd immunity, even a low titer will protect a child, especially since a low response to a vaccination (a low initial titer) can build if the child has rare, low exposures, for example to attenuated live virus shed by a sibling who was recently immunized, or to someone who has an attenuated case of something.

Back when vaccines were just a little cruder than they are, I caught a mild case of pertussis shortly post-vac. My mother of course, blamed the vaccine-- not enough to be anti-vax, but enough to say that she wished the government would put more money into improving them (1970 thinking vs. 2010 thinking).

I realize now that what I probably had was either an attenuated case-- and infection by a weakened strain, or something not connected to my actual vaccination at all, other than that I didn't hold a titer very well, and was exposed to someone who had pertussis (IIRC, the vaccine was given later then, than it is now, so something like 5% of kids still suffered through it before they could be vaccinated), then caught it, but my vaccine helped to fight it, just not enough.

It passed like a cold, except that the cough was so awful; it was unrepressible-- I couldn't not cough if you'd dangled money or candy in front of me, and sometimes it would be hard to catch my breath, because I'd want to cough, except I had no air left. But that part lasted for maybe 24 or 36 hours. In actual pertussis, it can go on for a week.

So, those kids might be unvaccinated, or just unlucky. If they aren't holding a titer, but are partially immune, they will probably be OK.

However, if enough of them get it, then the virus has a chance to mutate into something that can begin to infect even fully vaccinated children. This is one of the reasons that someone else not vaccinating can hurt you.

It's also why you get a titer test for Rubella when you are pregnant.

Many adults do not hold titers for their whole lives, although most of them, without realizing it, were, at some point, (many times, actually) exposed to things they were vaccinated for, and the vaccinations protected them that first time, then the exposure acted like a booster shot.

This is why the military gives every recruit booster shots for all the childhood vaccines.

I know you have a daughter whose health is vulnerable, all though I don't know whether she is especially vulnerable to infections, or respiratory problems, but if there are several cases of pertusis at her daycare, or your other daughter's school, you can ask your pediatrician if she thinks a serum titer test for Maureen might be a good idea.

Just to emphasize, though: not holding a titer at all after a childhood vaccine is very rare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleiguana View Post
Thimerosal was discontinued in 1992. My oldest (who is autistic) was born in 2004. Someone explain that to me. (I couldn't read the link... it redirected me somewhere else.) I have a hard time believing there is a direct link.
Hmmmm. There must still have been some floating around the doctor's office-- no I know! BIG PHARMA couldn't stand to lose money by throwing away all those thimerosol vaccines, so they have been sneaking a few into every batch sent out since 1992, and your kid must have gotten one! conspiracy! Sue! rant, rant!!!!! where's the outrage? Oh, why won't people listen?

Or, maybe it wasn't the thimerosol after all-- it was *gasp* the vaccines themselves! Kids get too many at once! Could you handle being exposed to measles and mumps on the same day? That's utterly ridiculous! That never happens in the real world, where kids develop natural immunity, which is so much better than that artificial immunity.

Did I miss anything?
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  #216  
Old 15 January 2011, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mouse goddess View Post
is it possible for a vaccinated kindergartner to come down with pertussis? My DD's school has had a few cases, and I'm wondering if their parents are non-vaccinators, or if they were just unlucky.
I do not make immunities to measles or mumps at all. I know this because, in the years before I got pregnant, I got the MMR four times, and got tested six months after each MMR. I showed up beautifully for rubella, but never for measles or mumps.
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  #217  
Old 15 January 2011, 12:40 PM
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Yeah, some people are like that. If I understood my son's doctor, the reason baby's get both live-attenuated, and killed-normal polio vaccines is that some people respond to one, or at least significantly better to one, and not the other, and in large enough numbers that it's practical to just give everyone both types.

You are another reason it's so important to vaccinate everyone.

I will say one thing, if you are a woman, and an adult, and have to pick one, rubella is the one to pick to hold a titer to. Not that measles and mumps aren't dangerous to pregnancy, but they are less insidious, because people know they have them. It is very easy to have rubella, and not realize it, and therefore not avoid people you know are pregnant, or places where there are likely to be pregnant women, like the OB/gyn office, or a preschool, where lots of mothers are having another child (more likely at a preschool than a high school, is what I'm saying).
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  #218  
Old 15 January 2011, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
Did I miss anything?
Um... only the part that explains where I, who got my vaccinations in the late 70s and early 80s, when thimerosal was still being used, am not in any way autistic, and that the same could be said for millions and millions of people.
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  #219  
Old 15 January 2011, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleiguana View Post
Thimerosal was discontinued in 1992. My oldest (who is autistic) was born in 2004. Someone explain that to me. (I couldn't read the link... it redirected me somewhere else.) I have a hard time believing there is a direct link.
2001, actually.

RivkahChaya: people who have met him have said that. I obviously have not. And I'd be wary of a video simply because it can be edited.

Sister "not saying you are wrong" Ray
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  #220  
Old 15 January 2011, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Ray View Post
2001, actually.
Thing I Googled said 1992, but the point remains. He was born in 2004.
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