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  #1  
Old 22 February 2007, 08:53 PM
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Dog Vaccinations caused autism

What must it be like to spend a huge amount of time every waking day trying to change public health practice - only to find out that you were wrong?

That is precisely what has happened to the proponents of the theory that mercury in vaccines - contained in the preservative thimerosal, which once was used (and is used no longer) in vaccines - is responsible for a nearly 20-year explosion in autism and other neurological disorders among American children.

http://www.dailynewstribune.com/opin...41003226284028
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  #2  
Old 22 February 2007, 08:56 PM
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Wait a minute, what about 90% of autism is genetic??
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Old 22 February 2007, 09:01 PM
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Sometimes things just happen because they happen, and there isn't anyone to blame.
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  #4  
Old 22 February 2007, 11:09 PM
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Glasses

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Originally Posted by glass papaya View Post
Sometimes things just happen because they happen, and there isn't anyone to blame.
Gasp! That's anti-American! You have to have a deep pocket to blame, so you can sue.

Seaboe

(anyone who thinks I'm serious has a few screws loose)
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  #5  
Old 22 February 2007, 11:48 PM
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The genetic component found related to autism does not necessarily exclude murcury or any other heavy metal as being a factor in autism. Genetics often gives a predisposition towards a disorder which may need to trigger of some sort. In the case of autism, while a genetic component has been found, whether or not there needs to be a trigger hasn't been discovered yet.

IIRC, the studies on autism that were conducted to see if there was a link between Thimerosal and autism excluded children with a family history of autism. That is the usual methology of that kind of study and I never saw any information that these studies were conducted any differently. It has long been the belief shared by many people I know that the heavy metals, including Thimerosal, are the trigger for many genetic neurological disorders, not just autism.
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Old 23 February 2007, 07:06 AM
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Humans don't like coincidences, we like to have causal links and to establish patterns. Certain childhood vaccines were given at the stage of development where autism was first noticeable. That does not mean the vaccine caused the autism although many people wanted a nice neat cause-and-effect relationship so they could (a) sue for damages to cover special schooling/care and (b) prevent autism.
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Old 23 February 2007, 03:52 PM
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I think it's a good idea for eveyrone to go memorize the list of a hundred plus fallacies right now.
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  #8  
Old 23 February 2007, 05:15 PM
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Here in the UK the main vaccination/autism scare relates to the triple Measles/Mumps/Rubella ("MMR") jag that kids get at (I don't know, 1-2 years?). The argument is not to do with mercury (as far as I know) - I don't know if anyone who's familiar with the arguments can follow up for me and describe the theory (I know, I know, "do my homework": but I would probably make a hash of explaining it as a non-scientist).

Anyway, the scare means that the easiest way for me to ensure my future child gets vaccinated is to agree that he can get separate jags (this will smooth any family ructions as Mr Embra is of the "you never know" camp in this matter), even though separate jags are not govt approved any more and the triple jag is.

I have been through several arguments about this, and it really does seem like the only option to make sure the Embling gets his jags. bah.
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  #9  
Old 24 February 2007, 01:34 PM
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Bit of a hijack here but can anyone tell me an approximate ratio of girls to boys with autism. I was once told by someone that his kids would be having the MMR jabs because "girls don't get autism". I know it is generally boys who have autism but wondered if anyone could enlighten me further.
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  #10  
Old 24 February 2007, 01:56 PM
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This 2003 article says 3:1 or 4:1, depending on the researcher. The article also discusses the idea that there may be a gene related to autism on the Y chromosome; it isn't unusual to find that certain genetic traits are controlled by more than one gene, requiring a sort of interaction of possibilities involving genes and triggers. OTOH, it also discusses that the idea that autism presents differently in girls and that female autism is under diagnosed and underreported.

It would be nice if they could first identify what autism is so they could definitively diagnose it instead of relying on behavioral symptoms which are evaluated by subjective measures and could have a number of causes.
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Old 24 February 2007, 02:08 PM
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Embra, didn't the scientist here who made the link have a conflict of interest? There was a question over the funding I think.
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  #12  
Old 24 February 2007, 02:38 PM
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What gets me is all the parents who didn't/don't have their children vaccinated because they don't want their children to "get autism." I would think the risk of polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, etc would be a lot more real and scary then a very, very slight chance that the vaccine would cause autism (which I don't believe in the least).

Unfortunatly my own father married a woman (after my parent's divorce) who believes everything she hears and she's lead him to believe it as well. As a result, my own step-sister didn't get many of the vaccines she should have.

(side-note: They also don't own a microwave because it "causes cancer" and use herbal remidies because "western medicine makes you stay sick longer so doctors make more money off you, rather then cure you." >_< I can't believe I came from this man! He used to be normal too. *sigh* Oh, and although they don't own a microwave, they do own cell phones, which direct all waves into your head, bad or not. lol )
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Old 24 February 2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzie View Post
What gets me is all the parents who didn't/don't have their children vaccinated because they don't want their children to "get autism." I would think the risk of polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, etc would be a lot more real and scary then a very, very slight chance that the vaccine would cause autism (which I don't believe in the least).
I agree Mizzie. It's especially frustrating when the "cause" seems to jump around year after year. I remember when the pertussis part of the DTP vaccine was suspected; people started requesting vaccines without the pertussis component. Result? Lots of babies got whooping cough, which is a horrible disease. Then thimerosal, now MMR, what next?

Don't get me wrong. My son is not very severe on the spectrum, but I know people whose kids are, and life is incredibly difficult for them. I understand the push to find a cause, I really do, and I do think it is a worthwhile subject to persue. What bugs me is the speculation. People can do the things suggested, follow all the recommendations, and still have an autistic child.

Then you start getting into all the bullpucky about how to fix your child. Don't even get me started.
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  #14  
Old 24 February 2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
It would be nice if they could first identify what autism is so they could definitively diagnose it instead of relying on behavioral symptoms which are evaluated by subjective measures and could have a number of causes.
Wholeheartedly agreed!!

The more I know about it, the more it seems that the "package" of behaviours and conditions that are labelled as being on the austism spectrum disorder, are really just that - a cluster of things that we are trying to understand. I think the ASD label is useful in terms of helping people (i.e. teachers, family) to understand that the child is exceptional. However, we can't be complacent in thinking that is the final explanantion.
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  #15  
Old 24 February 2007, 04:55 PM
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This is not about autism, and I don't have a cite so please don't ask for one. It's true, and it is not an FOAF story. I hope you will take my word for it.

I know a woman whose baby granddaughter died as a result of one of the childhood vaccines. I don't remember which one as it's been 15 years ago, but it was the first "baby shot" babies generally get. The whole family was devastated, naturally, but they did not sue anyone. They recognized that there was no intent to kill the baby, and they also knew that no amount of money would make them feel any better. They did, however, try to get some publicity, but none was forthcoming. I, myself, wrote letters to different people and entities I thought might be interested--Oprah and People magazine, for example, and to several news organizations, including television station news departments in Oklahoma. The only response I got was a form postcard from Oprah's program and a letter from People stating that they were not interested. All these people wanted was an investigation and some public awareness--forget about large sums of money. They couldn't even get that. These things do happen, no matter that they are apparently rare.

If you're wondering, I know how many years ago it was because my granddaughter was in kindergarten at the time, and this woman was a special ed teacher. She also taught remedial reading and did a few other things because it was a very small school. I had known her previously when she worked for me at the local college and was going to college.

All of that being said, I still encourage vaccination for babies and young children. None of my grandchildren and great grandchildren have gone without them. I'm not sure what the policy is today, but at one time, a child could go to school in Oklahoma without being up-to-date on his/her vaccinations if the parent signed some kind of form. In spite of the fact that I have personal knowledge of death resulting from these vaccines, I still think the benefit outweighs the risk. Of course, I might not feel that way had the baby been my grandchild. One never knows.

ETA: I found this page about vaccine exemption. The page was updated in April, 2006, so I assume vaccine exemption is still in effect.

Last edited by Signora Del Drago; 24 February 2007 at 05:09 PM.
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  #16  
Old 24 February 2007, 06:13 PM
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The only vaccine I am "against" is the HPV one--and it's not that I'm even out and out against it--I just don't feel enough study has been done on it to warrant a "YOU MUST HAVE THIS!!!!1111!!" cry that has been going on.

We vaccinate, fully. What I find disturbing is that it seems those who won't do it because of some fear of autism, makes them sound like they don't want a "developmentally disabled" (mentally or other disability) child (well, they would use the R word, but I won't)....

It's like they want that perfect child and will blame anything that causes the imperfection.


(and yeah, no cites either, but I've spoken enough about the weirdos I know, so please believe me as well. It almost seems as though they fear the "R" word)...

And they don't get that they are putting themselves, their child and everyone around them at a bigger risk for not vaccinating.

~~EB

Last edited by ElectricBarbarella; 24 February 2007 at 06:15 PM. Reason: clarify
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  #17  
Old 24 February 2007, 06:49 PM
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Signora, my mom babysat a little girl who was gravely harmed by vaccinations, too. This was about 25 years ago. Her mom was a nurse in a doctor's office, and brought the vaccine home from work to immunize her daughter. It must have been the MMR, because she was about 19 months old. Shortly after getting the vaccine, the little girl started seizing and then went into a coma. She is now quite developmentally delayed, due to brain damage from anoxia and her high fever. As you can imagine, it was devastating for the family, and they never attempted to gain any publicity. Sick Kid's hospital concluded that they couldn't directly blame the vaccine for the reaction, but they acknowledged that there did not seem to be any other causitive factor.

My own son had a nasty reaction to the old pertussis vaccine, and I didn't get him reinnoculated until the new vaccine came out, when he was 7. He was recently diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, but I don't go so far as to blame his vaccine reaction, any more than I blame the 8 ultrasounds I had when I was pregnant with him. It's just one of those things.

My youngest son has Tourette Syndrome, and I recently learned that there is a much higher percentage of children with my older son's profile (gifted/learning disabled/aspergers) in Tourette sibs, than in the general population. That's interesting, that is.
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Old 24 February 2007, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toys For Big Boys View Post
Embra, didn't the scientist here who made the link have a conflict of interest? There was a question over the funding I think.
In the dock: the man who caused the great MMR scare

Quote:
In 2004 it emerged that at the time he was preparing The Lancet paper, Dr Wakefield was being paid by lawyers for parents of children allegedly damaged by the MMR vaccine to look for evidence that could be used to help take legal action against manufacturers of the vaccine.
Apparently a public hearing is expected some time this year.
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  #19  
Old 24 February 2007, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glass papaya View Post
I agree Mizzie. It's especially frustrating when the "cause" seems to jump around year after year. I remember when the pertussis part of the DTP vaccine was suspected; people started requesting vaccines without the pertussis component. Result? Lots of babies got whooping cough, which is a horrible disease. Then thimerosal, now MMR, what next?
The old pertussis component of the DTP could cause seizure disorders and was not suppose to be given to children with seizures or a family history of seizure disorder.

Unfortunately the nurse didn't read the instructions properly and gave my son the pertussis component anyway.

Last edited by Sara@home; 24 February 2007 at 07:56 PM.
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  #20  
Old 24 February 2007, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara@home View Post
The old pertussis component of the DTP could cause seizure disorders and was not suppose to be given to children with seizures or a family history of seizure disorder.

Unfortunately the nurse didn't read the instructions properly and gave my son the pertussis component anyway.
After my son reacted to the pertussis vaccine, I learned that my younger brother's reaction was so severe that he was never given another dose. Shortly after getting a series of vaccines, he was hospitalized for 3 months with an unidentified immune deficiency. They never really figured out what was wrong with him, or why he had been so sick, but he had a fairly healthy childhood (haunted by absence seizures and learning disabilities).
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