Religious lady keeps miscarriage?

[RivkahChaya]

Jewish funerals are always closed casket, so I did not attend an open casket funeral until I was past thirty, and it happened to be for a child. As a result, I have a particular horror of open casket funerals. I'm glad I will never have to choose between attending the funeral of a close family member, and seeing an open casket.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the open casket and viewing were an extension of the "lying in state," and that tradition began as a way of being sure that a person is dead-- if they don't get up for three days, are ice cold, and starting to smell, probably dead. Given that we have better ways of making sure a person is dead, the tradition doesn't really have a purpose, but I'm not going to tell people what to do in the mourning process. I do, however, think ornate caskets, viewings where funeral homes charge by the hour, and embalming and cosmetics to make the corpse look good for the viewing is something of a scam.

I like that Judaism doesn't leave a lot of choices: it must be a simple, unfinished coffin, no embalming, viewing, and such. That way, a vulnerable family in emotional pain won't be pressured into extravagance by a funeral director seeing dollar signs.

I have always been just a little suspicious that the recent idea of elaborate funerals, burials, headstones, and such for miscarried fetuses, under the guise of bringing "closure" to a family, is just a way for funeral homes to make money.

I would never say that to the face of someone who had just gone through a miscarriage or stillbirth, but I still wonder.

[Chloe]

My ex's cousin's little boy, aged about 3, was killed running out in front of a car about ten years ago. I was abroad at the time, so couldn't go to the funeral, which was open casket, but it was, by his report, just unbearable. The mother kept pulling his little body out of the coffin and cradling it. I can't imagine how awful the whole thing must have been, for everybody.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

Jewish funerals are always closed casket, so I did not attend an open casket funeral until I was past thirty, and it happened to be for a child. As a result, I have a particular horror of open casket funerals. I'm glad I will never have to choose between attending the funeral of a close family member, and seeing an open casket.

My college BF was Jewish. The first Gentile funeral he attended was that of his best friend's mother, and he was completely blindsided by the open casket. I hadn't warned him about it because I didn't yet know enough about Jewish funeral practice to realize he needed a warning. He was very shaken by the whole thing -- the possibility of an open casket had never even occurred to him.

[justusfour]

It seems I might need to clarify my own experience. My father's service did not even have the casket in the room. We had the service, his friends spoke, his family spoke, etc. Then we had the viewing for those who wanted to see him, and those who didn't headed to the reception at my brother's house (he was being flown to Texas from California to be buried at the national cemetary here so we didn't proceed to a burial after the service). I would not have had an open casket at the service since I would not have known all of the guests feelings on that matter and wouldn't want to impose that on them.

[RivkahChaya]

I just wanted to say I read the Santorum article in the link, and I hate him more than ever.

There were lots of things to be P'O'ed about in the article, but for some reason it really irks me that he and his wife insisted their miscarried fetus be referred to not as a "20-week-old fetus," but a "20-week-old baby." WTF? A 20-week-old baby is a three-month-old, smiling, holding its head up, looking around. A newborn can be both a "one-day-old baby," and a "40-week-old fetus," if a doctor is trying to be exact about its development. For that matter, a one-day-old baby who is also a 40-week fetus is not the same thing as a one-day-old baby who is a 30-week fetus.

I just had to point that out to someone.

[LizzyBean]

Originally Posted by Chloe

I agree with Eddy. I also think there is a difference between being there when someone dies or shortly thereafter and saying your goodbyes, and that person's body being put on display days later, embalmed and made-up. Each to hir own, of course, and I have attended and would attend open-casket funerals; I would prefer, though, that a funeral I attend would be closed-casket.

And I agree with you Chloe. When my grandpa died I was out of town, so I didn't make it for the viewing, but the funeral. My grandma also had a viewing, but I refused to go. I just can't bear it.

[Eddylizard]

Originally Posted by LizzyBean

And I agree with you Chloe. When my grandpa died I was out of town, so I didn't make it for the viewing, but the funeral. My grandma also had a viewing, but I refused to go. I just can't bear it.

I have to add that my acquantance had not seen her father for at least a year, due to moving away. She learnt of his sudden death via a phone call. She viewed his body at a private viewing at the funeral home - open caskets are practically unheard of here - and it did help her 'let go' so to speak.

I don't think anyone has the right to dictate how someone else should mourn over the loss of a loved one. Some people go into deep grief, some turn round and try to smile, and there are all sorts of other responses. None are right, and none are wrong, IMO.

I can't remember the name of the poster (sorry) who mentioned the Jewish family being railroaded by the hospital into doing the ceremony that the hospital prescribed, that is wrong. The offer and the opportunity should be there, but the right to decline it should be respected.

In the end, I have no idea how I'd feel, or what I'd do if it were me. My heart goes out to those who have first hand experience.

ETA To Lizzybean - I'm launching off your post, not commenting on it.

Man, this is so sad. It sort of reminds me about the story I read the other day where some folks (vermin) somewhere were shouting at a jumper to "just jump and get it over with" and that sort of thing until the guy actually did just that. From what I read, the police had a hard time holding the crowd back after they pushed in to try and get pictures of the dead body with their camera phones.

Some people can really be ugly. Similar to fundy X-tians (and I didn't write Christian for a reason) that crowd around a lady who has had an abortion and poke and prod and judge, as if they have an F-ing CLUE what lead her to do it (disease? deformity? who are they to judge?). Granted, all of this is terribly messy business, with folks on both sides having valid points.

But not this. This is more like the people that goaded and prompted the jumper to go through with it. Some of the people that commented on that website... phew, I just don't know what to say.

I hope that they never lose a child, and realize what asshats they are and they are being. Some people deal with things differently than others, and if this was the way that this lady needed to cope with her loss, then who are they to say differently? Who are they to put her sad, private moment up for all to see and ridicule? Who are they to ridicule in the first place?

And what the hell does religion have to do with any of this? Are they implying that an atheist mother would have just dumped the fetus in the garbage can and run out about town to find another willing male to impregnate her again?

I just don't understand this thought process. Mourning processes are different for everyone, and what you find creepy may be infinitely comforting for them. it isn't your business, so get over it and move on...

BTW, does this not ring a bit like the story about Senator Santorum and his wife bringing their stillborn fetus home with them? Is that story even true? Anyone know?

[Halfmad]

The Santorum story was discussed upthread; check the earlier messages. It's true.

My initial reaction to the photos was utter shock (I was not expecting the baby to look like that) but that doesn't mean I condemn their choice. I just remember how my father (who was born in the 1920s) was traumatized when he was little when his older brother died and he was forced to look at him in the coffin.

I was never much for open caskets either, but about ten years ago a close friend of mine died and his funeral was held out of state. I attended it and his parents made arrangements so that I was able to see him in the coffin (flights, etc., I missed the official wake). I can't explain it, but I had a real, overpowering need to see him one last time. FWIW, I don't really remember how he looked then; all I have is photos of him alive. But I remember well feeling that I really, really needed to see him.

Of course, no one made that decision for me. No easy answers.

[Ana Ng]

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought the open casket and viewing were an extension of the "lying in state," and that tradition began as a way of being sure that a person is dead-- if they don't get up for three days, are ice cold, and starting to smell, probably dead.

Apologies if I am repeating myself, but I just read somewhere recently that embalming came into vogue in the US when Lincoln was embalmed because at the time, it wasn't common practice to do so. After the whole Lincoln thing, everyone wanted to be embalmed.

Although I am not fond of open casket funerals, the few I have been to have been so except in the one case where there was no body. While open casket disturbed me, I would have much preferred that to the sadness of a lack of body.

Unlike circumcision, this is an American affectation that is hurting no one so it doesn't bother me either way that we do it. I'd rather not be embalmed personally and I find it to be a waste, but no one really gets hurt by it.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by Ana Ng

Apologies if I am repeating myself, but I just read somewhere recently that embalming came into vogue in the US when Lincoln was embalmed because at the time, it wasn't common practice to do so. After the whole Lincoln thing, everyone wanted to be embalmed.

I don't know about Lincoln's embalming, but the Civil War influenced the popularity/commonness of the process. People who were able to do so sometimes shipped their loved ones home, so embalmers set up business near battlefields.

Unlike circumcision, this is an American affectation that is hurting no one so it doesn't bother me either way that we do it. I'd rather not be embalmed personally and I find it to be a waste, but no one really gets hurt by it.

Not directly, but there may be detrimental environmental effects.

[Meka]

I'm not sure whether it's a family, local, or Catholic tradition, but my own experience has been open caskets during the wake/viewing at the funeral home, but closed casket for the actual funeral mass. This way, anyone who does not wish to view the body may still attend the funeral to pay their respects.

On a personal level, having never been with any of my loved ones when they died, I found it comforting to actually see them one last time to say goodbye. Particularly with how my father died - from my perspective, he literally walked out the door one morning and never came back; I was 8 at the time - I'm not sure I could have handled not seeing him again.

[Mama Duck]

http://www.embalming.netJust another point of debate. There are levels of embalming, from keep the skin on and the smell out until the funeral's over to "they'll be in mint condition 10 years later". Most of the open casket funerals I've attended had the minimal of embalming. First, trying to go for the "Lenin look" is expensive. Second, Louisiana soil is usually so acidic, it's going to destroy the body anyway. And those using family tombs would have to be minimally embalmed so the tomb doesn't turn every funeral into an emotionally wrenching "Night of the Living Dead" for friends and relatives.
Honestly, I don't care what other people do. I really didn't realize closed caskets were so common.

Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Embalming Warning: Obviously it's about dead people.

[smackmac]

While that's not the way I'd choose to mourn, there is nothing wrong with it. When I miscarried, I mourned in my own way. When my sister delivered a stillborn son at 9 months, she had the photos taken, the footprints done, she named him and buried him. And never spoke of him again. Which was her way to mourn, I guess.

Regarding open vs. closed casket funerals:

I had always been to open-casket funerals, my first being a very close friend of my sister's (and mine) who was murdered. Another friend had the bright idea to bring me directly to the casket and take my hand and brush it against my deceased friend's cheek, saying "Doesn't she look beautiful?" At 10, that's not a great introduction to death. I've never been comfortable at open casket funerals since, and of course, being nominally Catholic, that's about all the family does.

When I began to attend Jewish funerals in relation to work, I was pleasantly surprised at the difference. No open-casket. No sitting around making small talk for hours in front of a coffin. No wasting money on flowers.

If I had my druthers, that's how I'd do it. Of course, my husband is just going to cut me up and put me in the wood-burner.

[Lainie]

Originally Posted by Mama Duck

I really didn't realize closed caskets were so common.

Then you can imagine the shock of someone like my college BF, who had never seen anything but closed caskets and found himself standing in front of an open one.

[Xia]

Originally Posted by Chloe

Not quite the same, though, as the fetus is clearly not in an advanced state of human development, but FWIW, I don't think children should see dead adults in open caskets either (and I'm not that keen on adults doing it, either).

I had no problem seeing my grandmother in the casket when I was in 2nd grade. In fact I wasn't even really upset, I think because I was a child and I didn't really understand it... It did not upset me say the way it did when my great-uncle died when I was 16... I got so upset at his wake that I spent about 30 minutes hyperventilating and crying before someone finally took me out of the funeral home.

I don't think I've ever been to one that was closed casket. Thankfully I haven't been to many funerals though.

Beginning with my first pregnancy, I combed through the forums for parents who had stillbirths, and as Blushing Bride wrote, it's pretty common for people to post pictures online. I've even found quite a few websites dedicated to stillbirths.

And as Spamamander stated, I'm in no position to tell someone how to grieve. I'm sure pictures, footprints and locks of hair are all normal parts of the process. But I draw the line at emailing and sending out birth/death announcements to unsuspecting people. These pictures always come with the caption variation of- "Our little angel, born sleeping. Isn't he just beautiful?" Yes, to you and close family members he is beautiful. But to people who aren't close to you he looks like a dead fetus. I know that sounds horrible, but it's true.

I think processing such a traumatic event can have an effect of making someone insensitive. Just like birth, the grief of losing a fetus is a very personal event, and I believe the lines of personal boundaries can get away from some people who are still in the eye of an emotional storm. I understand posting the family photos on boards and forums dedicated to these tragedies, but I think it's going too far if someone is actually springing these images to people without warning.

Oh, and I wanted to add something about the open/closed debate.

I've been to many many funerals in my life, and only one was closed casket. I guess it differs from area to area, but around here caskets are open "by default" and some people are a little suspicious and weirded out by closed caskets. A lot of people like to touch and embrace their loved ones before being entombed. My mother, for example, gets very upset if she goes to a closed casket funeral.

I had no idea it was such a big deal for some people.