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Old 21 September 2008, 07:54 PM
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Soapbox Mussolini: fascism = corporatism

Comment: "Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the
merger of corporate and government power" - Benito Mussolini

This quote is prevalent on lefty sites. It doesn't ring true to me - I
doubt "corporatism" was a word in the 30's and 40's.
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  #2  
Old 21 September 2008, 08:07 PM
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I've not heard that specific quote before, but Mussolini did often refer to "corporate power." However, he didn't mean the power of big companies, rather the power of a large number of individuals working collectively. That's what he meant by corporativismo. (I know it's Wikipedia, but it's broadly speaking accurate.)

So I would imagine the quote is real, but it doesn't mean exactly the same as people think it means.
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  #3  
Old 22 September 2008, 06:38 AM
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From wikipedia:

Quote:
The Labour Charter of 1927, promulgated by the Grand Council of Fascism, stated in article 7:
"The corporative State considers private initiative, in the field of production, as the most efficient and useful instrument of the Nation," then goes on to say in article 9 that: "State intervention in economic production may take place only where private initiative is lacking or is insufficient, or when are at stakes the political interest of the State. This intervention may take the form of control, encouragement or direct management."
In other words, real or not, it sound like a reasonably plausible thing for Mussolini to say.
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Old 22 September 2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dara bhur gCara View Post
I've not heard that specific quote before, but Mussolini did often refer to "corporate power." However, he didn't mean the power of big companies, rather the power of a large number of individuals working collectively. That's what he meant by corporativismo. (I know it's Wikipedia, but it's broadly speaking accurate.)

So I would imagine the quote is real, but it doesn't mean exactly the same as people think it means.
Yeah, he probably says it but it reflects on current corporations about as much as Hitler's party being called National Socialists reflects on lefties, which is to say, not at all.
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Old 22 September 2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringTheNoise View Post
Yeah, he probably says it but it reflects on current corporations about as much as Hitler's party being called National Socialists reflects on lefties, which is to say, not at all.
Particular as at the time there was an actual Socialist party in Germany.
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Old 22 September 2008, 11:23 AM
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Hey, Tarquin! Are you posting from work?
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Old 22 September 2008, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dara bhur gCara View Post
Hey, Tarquin! Are you posting from work?
Nope day off.
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Old 22 September 2008, 12:16 PM
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Nope day off.
Ah, I thought you'd tried my clever trick.
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  #9  
Old 22 September 2008, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringTheNoise View Post
Yeah, he probably says it but it reflects on current corporations about as much as Hitler's party being called National Socialists reflects on lefties, which is to say, not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart View Post
Particular as at the time there was an actual Socialist party in Germany.
I certainly can't claim any expertise on the matter, but wasn't Rudolf Jung's 1920 renaming of the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei as the NSDAP a reflection of a strongly anti-capitalist, anti-clerical philosophy which co-existed on an equal footing with the nationalist and anti-semitic elements of Nazi thought until the need to placate Army antagonism to the SA led Hitler to approve the purge of the more socialistic elements within the party in the Night of the Long Knives (which of course occurred a full year after the proscription of the internationalist socialists of the SPD under the Enabling Act of 1933)?
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Old 22 September 2008, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Particular as at the time there was an actual Socialist party in Germany.
And they and the nazis were bitter enemies.
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  #11  
Old 22 September 2008, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz View Post
I certainly can't claim any expertise on the matter,
Oh, I don't know, you seem to have a more than average insight into the subject. You aren't a war-gamer by any chance, are you?

Quote:
but wasn't Rudolf Jung's 1920 renaming of the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei as the NSDAP a reflection of a strongly anti-capitalist, anti-clerical philosophy which co-existed on an equal footing with the nationalist and anti-semitic elements of Nazi thought until the need to placate Army antagonism to the SA led Hitler to approve the purge of the more socialistic elements within the party in the Night of the Long Knives (which of course occurred a full year after the proscription of the internationalist socialists of the SPD under the Enabling Act of 1933)?
Broadly speaking yes, and there's an argument that "National Socialism" is a fairly discrete philosophy taking elements from both streams of thought. I would argue that "Corporatism" that is to say large groups of people working towards a common (evil) goal, is generally speaking the same philosophy. Certainly both Mussolini's fascism and Nazism embraced a planned economy, strong regulation of the markets and strong economic protectionism, which many would argue to be 'socialist' philosophies.

I would also argue that the anti-semitism of the NSDAP probably stems largely from anti-capitalism. Although it's obviously a canard now, in the early parts of the twentieth century, and particularly in the fin-de-siecle era, a lot of the banks who invested money internationally were Jewish-owned, and it's not hard to imagine one stemming from the other.
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Old 22 September 2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dara bhur gCara View Post
Oh, I don't know, you seem to have a more than average insight into the subject. You aren't a war-gamer by any chance, are you?
I reckon I'd need to be some sort of "not war but street violence and agitation leading to a legal but utterly reprehensible takeover of state power"-gamer if I were to have the really serious insight into NSDAP philosophy that all others lack. Except people who have studied it, perhaps. And retired Nazis.

I was also going to be playful and put all my verbs at the end of my German-philosophy-professor-worthy sentence, but then I thought that would just be silly.

Quote:

Broadly speaking yes, and there's an argument that "National Socialism" is a fairly discrete philosophy taking elements from both streams of thought. I would argue that "Corporatism" that is to say large groups of people working towards a common (evil) goal, is generally speaking the same philosophy. Certainly both Mussolini's fascism and Nazism embraced a planned economy, strong regulation of the markets and strong economic protectionism, which many would argue to be 'socialist' philosophies.

I would also argue that the anti-semitism of the NSDAP probably stems largely from anti-capitalism. Although it's obviously a canard now, in the early parts of the twentieth century, and particularly in the fin-de-siecle era, a lot of the banks who invested money internationally were Jewish-owned, and it's not hard to imagine one stemming from the other.
Good points, Dara. You too are demonstrating an above average level of insight; it is clear that you eschew namby-pamby computer simulations when you do your wargaming.
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  #13  
Old 22 September 2008, 12:56 PM
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I think I'd quite like to take up "not war but street violence and agitation leading to a legal but utterly reprehensible takeover of state power"- gaming. I wonder are there any clubs in my local area?
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Old 22 September 2008, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dara bhur gCara View Post
I think I'd quite like to take up "not war but street violence and agitation leading to a legal but utterly reprehensible takeover of state power"- gaming. I wonder are there any clubs in my local area?
You could always start one.
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  #15  
Old 22 September 2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart View Post
You could always start one.
If you offer play-by-email, I'll join.
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  #16  
Old 22 September 2008, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringTheNoise View Post
If you offer play-by-email, I'll join.
I think it'd be better to do it via email. I wouldn't really want to see a bunch of people walking around outside in blackshirts, even if they were only playing.
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  #17  
Old 25 September 2008, 09:24 AM
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I think Mussolini was rather speaking of "corporations" in the middle-agic meaning of the word: hierarchised associations of people who practice the same trade, form apprentices, set the prices, defend their trade's interests etc.

Corporations were the backbone of middle-agic economy, and were instrumental in the rise of the big cities and their bourgeoisie. Some still live on, at least in Europe (I think of the Bakers, Butchers, Carpenters etc).

If I'm not mistaken, it was also Philippe Pétain's intention to re-organize the french economy on the same archaic pattern.
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  #18  
Old 25 September 2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dara bhur gCara View Post
I think I'd quite like to take up "not war but street violence and agitation leading to a legal but utterly reprehensible takeover of state power"- gaming. I wonder are there any clubs in my local area?
There was a game called Republic: The Revolution that's sort of along those lines, but unfortunately it's not very good. I think there were huge ambitions to have a whole 3d interactive city, but in the game itself that's just cosmetic background and you basically play on a single 2d map screen. You can follow people and cars around the city, and watch your strategic moves happening as 3d set pieces like rallies in different locations, but none of it actually does anything.

The only quote from Mussolini in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations is (in translation) "We must leave exactly on time ... from now on everything must function to perfection," which he said to a station master, as quoted in the book Mussolini by Giorgio Pini in 1939. Apparently the idea of the trains arriving on time is from Italian fascism rather than Nazism.

(eta)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
I think Mussolini was rather speaking of "corporations" in the middle-agic meaning of the word: hierarchised associations of people who practice the same trade, form apprentices, set the prices, defend their trade's interests etc.
Those would be "guilds" in English but it might be a dodgy translation.
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  #19  
Old 25 September 2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dara bhur gCara View Post
I think I'd quite like to take up "not war but street violence and agitation leading to a legal but utterly reprehensible takeover of state power"- gaming. I wonder are there any clubs in my local area?
There is no swuch thing as "not war but street violence and agitation leading to a legal but utterly reprehensible takeover of state power" Club.

You do not talk about "not war but street violence and agitation leading to a legal but utterly reprehensible takeover of state power" Club.
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  #20  
Old 25 September 2008, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
I think Mussolini was rather speaking of "corporations" in the middle-agic meaning of the word: hierarchised associations of people who practice the same trade, form apprentices, set the prices, defend their trade's interests etc.
I understood Oswald Mosley's corporatism to be along the same lines: there would be representative "corporations" in government for each area of society. Including a "women's Corporation", what with us all having the same concerns and that... (sorry, spent too long in at Colindale reading the BUF paper for that essay....)
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