Mormons kill those who renounce the faith?

[Lady Luzhin]

I was born in Utah, but my family and I moved to Washington when I was 4 months old. I was raised Episcoplian (Anglo-Catholic) and come from a family that has a strong dislike of Mormons (grandfather once chased two teenage missionaries down the street with a baseball bat). Anyway, I've heard stories that if a Mormon 'falls away' from the faith in Utah, they'll be dragged out to the boonies and will have their throat slit by church elders .

I don't know what to make of it. My bio-father lives in Utah still, and he is mormon in name only, he hasn't denounced the faith. Is this just some anti-Mormon crap my family's been feeding me the last 18 years, or is there any truth to it?

[AnglRdr]

I left the church 20 years ago, and, as best I can tell, I'm still alive.

I've even got the bills to prove it!

[BoKu]

Originally Posted by Lady Luzhin

...Anyway, I've heard stories that if a Mormon 'falls away' from the faith in Utah, they'll be dragged out to the boonies and will have their throat slit by church elders...

I think it depends on which part of Utah. For some of the more extreme FLDS elements tucked away in the remote corners, I wouldn't find it too hard to believe.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by BoKu

I think it depends on which part of Utah. For some of the more extreme FLDS elements tucked away in the remote corners, I wouldn't find it too hard to believe.

FLDS != Mormon.

[Cowboy Joe]

To put it simply, it is anti-Mormon crap your family has been feeding you for 18 years.

As for the FLDS, there has never been a case I am aware of that anyone has been murdered for leaving the polygamist community. Sure, they aren't happy about defectors, but there are severa books by former polygamists who are also still very much alive.

[Michael Cole]

Originally Posted by Lady Luzhin

I was born in Utah, but my family and I moved to Washington when I was 4 months old. I was raised Episcoplian (Anglo-Catholic) and come from a family that has a strong dislike of Mormons (grandfather once chased two teenage missionaries down the street with a baseball bat).

Which I believe would be a criminal offence - even in Washington.

Anyway, I've heard stories that if a Mormon 'falls away' from the faith in Utah, they'll be dragged out to the boonies and will have their throat slit by church elders .

I would very much doubt it, because that would be murder, which would be a criminal offence - even in Utah. I know that there is various Religious Freedom standards in your country, but I very much doubt that the authorities would extend it to cover murder, even in Utah.

And I have a faint suspision that lots of ex-Mormons disappearing would raise some suspisions...

I don't know what to make of it. My bio-father lives in Utah still, and he is mormon in name only, he hasn't denounced the faith. Is this just some anti-Mormon crap my family's been feeding me the last 18 years, or is there any truth to it?

I'd say yes to the first part and no to the second.

[BatmanBeatles]

Well this is new one. I've never heard this one before.

[mags]

My sister's long-term boyfriend was raised Mormon and was excommunicated (they may call it something else) in high school because he enjoyed sex too much and was unwilling to be penitent about it once it was found out he was having sex (and with whom, it was his religious leader's daughter, I believe).

He's still alive and kicking. I don't think he was living in Utah at the time, though. It does prove it not to be universal, and other things about the modern Mormon faith makes it even more unlikely, in my opinion.

I think it's unlikely that it happens at all in the modern age, even if it ever did in the past. The first I ever heard a rumor of murdering those who leave the faith was when I recently read a Sherlock Holmes story in which just that happened, early on in the Mormon colonization of Utah. That is, of course, a fictional story.

Maybe your family just read too much Holmes?

[Starla]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeatles

Well this is new one. I've never heard this one before.

Really? When I was in high school my extremely conservative church's youth pastor showed us all a video about how evil Mormons allegedly were and the blood sacrifice was a major part of the video. Several former Mormons talked about attempts on their life and people they knew who had been murdered after leaving the fold. If I recall correctly it only happened to people who were really high up in the faith and who were believed to be leading other people astray. There was something about some convoluted theology where only spilling the defector's blood would make it so that they wouldn't go to hell so killing them was actually for their own good. It was called "blood atonement." Not that I believe any of that, of course. I'm just surprised no one else had heard these rumors.

It's an old video, it was old when I saw it 12+ years ago, and I'm not having any luck Googling for a reference to it but I remember a Mormon friend of mine hearing just the title of the film and going livid. Can't blame her. But I got the impression that the film was well known in certain circles. I've read more than one anti-Mormon book that talked about blood atonement as well.

ETA1: Here's one link all about blood atonement.

ETA2: The movie was The God Makers and The God Makers II.

[Silas Sparkhammer]

There have been rumors, for a very long time, of the Mormon "Secret Police," the Danites, who will use any means to defend the church. There is probably a *very small* kernel of truth; the Danites may well exist to more or less the same degree that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League exists. In long-ago days on the frontier, when violence was a bit more common than it is today, ugly things happened. The Mormons were the victims of such violence, probably more than they ever were the perpetrators of it.

If the good Christians of Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, Kansas, etc. had left the Mormons alone, and minded their own doggone business, I'm pretty sure the Mormons would have been pleased to return the favor.

A quick Google search on "Danites" will turn up a great deal of sewage, much of it far worse than the OP.

Silas

[BoKu]

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

FLDS != Mormon.

I am not convinced that the issue at hand is of binary nature. I concede that the the curve might be pretty sharp, but I don't think there's no middle ground between 0 and 1.

Thanks, Bob "BoKu" K.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by BoKu

I am not convinced that the issue at hand is of binary nature. I concede that the the curve might be pretty sharp, but I don't think there's no middle ground between 0 and 1.

Thanks, Bob "BoKu" K.

How do you figure? FLDS members are not Mormons, nor are Mormons FLDS members.

[Lady Luzhin]

Originally Posted by Starla

ETA1: Here's one link all about blood atonement.

ETA2: The movie was The God Makers and The God Makers II.

My grandparents own those films, which would explain their anti-Mormon bias. Though they believe in their faith so strongly, they are very narrow minded. (Sighs)

[Magdalene]

Originally Posted by Lady Luzhin

I was born in Utah, but my family and I moved to Washington when I was 4 months old. I was raised Episcoplian (Anglo-Catholic) and come from a family that has a strong dislike of Mormons (grandfather once chased two teenage missionaries down the street with a baseball bat). Anyway, I've heard stories that if a Mormon 'falls away' from the faith in Utah, they'll be dragged out to the boonies and will have their throat slit by church elders .

I don't know what to make of it. My bio-father lives in Utah still, and he is mormon in name only, he hasn't denounced the faith. Is this just some anti-Mormon crap my family's been feeding me the last 18 years, or is there any truth to it?

I know far too many ex-Mormons who are still alive and kicking, so I'd say no. Of course, maybe whoever's in charge of the hit list is just way behind....

Magdalene

[Magdalene]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

In long-ago days on the frontier, when violence was a bit more common than it is today, ugly things happened. The Mormons were the victims of such violence, probably more than they ever were the perpetrators of it.

If the good Christians of Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, Kansas, etc. had left the Mormons alone, and minded their own doggone business, I'm pretty sure the Mormons would have been pleased to return the favor.

Doing a weak google-fu, I'm not finding anything about Mormon troubles in Ohio, and one about Kansas won't open for me. Missouri would be touchy--that strikes me less about religion and more about the neighboring areas not liking the anti-slavery sentiment (Missouri being a slave state) that the Mormons were stirring up. Illinois, however--when the Mormons go destroying printing presses because of an article about them they don't like, it's hard to garner too much sympathy for them.

Magdalene

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

How do you figure? FLDS members are not Mormons, nor are Mormons FLDS members.

Does the FLDS leadership *think* that it is a Mormon group?

Silas

[Silas Sparkhammer]

Originally Posted by Magdalene

Doing a weak google-fu, I'm not finding anything about Mormon troubles in Ohio, and one about Kansas won't open for me. Missouri would be touchy--that strikes me less about religion and more about the neighboring areas not liking the anti-slavery sentiment (Missouri being a slave state) that the Mormons were stirring up. Illinois, however--when the Mormons go destroying printing presses because of an article about them they don't like, it's hard to garner too much sympathy for them.

Wikipedia has a good article about it; search for "anti-Mormonism."

(I am, by the way, far less reluctant to use Wikipedia as an introductory search point, now that it is actually being edited and is no longer a free-for-all.)

The unpleasant fact is that Mormons were rousted from their homes and businesses by the intolerance of orthodox Christian churches; yes, they fought back some, but, in almost every case, they did not start the violence. I'm a bit more familiar with the events in Ohio due to family history.

(Although, to be honest, I've never been able to figure out which side my g'g'g'grampaw was on! Either he was rousting Mormons, or was rousted by anti-Mormons, but that's really about all I know!)

Silas

[Magdalene]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

The unpleasant fact is that Mormons were rousted from their homes and businesses by the intolerance of orthodox Christian churches; yes, they fought back some, but, in almost every case, they did not start the violence. I'm a bit more familiar with the events in Ohio due to family history.

I am not disagreeing that there were times the Mormons were unfairly treated. I simply disagree that they were *always* the victims, never the perpetrators. Nauvoo, IMO, was their doing--they didn't need to respond to a negative newspaper article with violence.

Missouri--same situation, only now the Mormons are on the other side of the fence. You speak of the Christians there needing to mind their own business. OK. However, the Mormons were printing anti-slavery articles in a slave state, which to the locals, probably made it feel like their business. It was wrong for the locals to use violence, however, just as it was wrong for the Mormons to use violence in Nauvoo.

You can't cheer when the Mormons do it in Illinois, then cry foul when it's done to them in Missouri.

Magdalene

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by Silas Sparkhammer

Does the FLDS leadership *think* that it is a Mormon group?

Silas

That is a great question. I just read Escape by Carolyn Jessop, who is a woman who was raised in Colorado City in the FLDS "church." She was married for 17 years to Merril Jessop.

The way she describes the cult is that they believe the priesthood was rightfully passed to the FLDS, rather than to the LDS leadership after the LDS church got rid of polygamy. They do not follow some of the distinctly Mormon tenents like adherence to the Word of Wisdom (the no caffeine, no alcohol, et cetera rule) (FLDS adherents drink coffee and alcohol). There are some similar beliefs about the importance of temple ceremonies, but they are quite different. Also, FLDS members, at least those in the Colorado City enclave, are convinced that all outsiders, including Mormons, are the enemy.

They also don't seem to self-identify as being the same as LDS.

So the short answer is I don't really think so--there seems to be a very distinct sense of "other"-ness about them. Also, I don't think Warren Jeffs thought himself the prophet of all LDS members--I haven't read anything that would indicate that.

[AnglRdr]

Originally Posted by Magdalene

I am not disagreeing that there were times the Mormons were unfairly treated. I simply disagree that they were *always* the victims, never the perpetrators. Nauvoo, IMO, was their doing--they didn't need to respond to a negative newspaper article with violence.

Silas did say "almost always."

Also, I am very curious about your take about what happened in Nauvoo, since my understanding of it is that non-Mormon residents of the county arrested Smith and then lynched him. It was a lot more than a "negative newspaper article" that was responded to with violence.