Nazis salute tortured French resistance fighter

[snopes]

Comment: A friend told me about a French resistance fighter who was
tortured to death overnight by the Germans. Since he'd died without
telling them anything despite their ruthless methods, they sang "The
Marseilles" out of respect. This smells fishy to me, and I think I heard a
similar one about indian captives when I was at summer camp. Also, given
the Gallic tendency to inflate the level of their resistance activities,
had such a thing happened, the hero would be on their stamps and currency,
if not in statue in every one vinyard village in Provence. Have you heard
anything about this legend?

[Dropbear]

The gallic tendency? The GALLIC tendency? (voice rises in pitch at the outrageous effrontery of that statement)

Oh heaven forfend that anyone but the French would ever try to rewrite history to overinflate the heroism of their military. Dear me no - that sort behaviour is just not done in english speaking countries.

Dropbear

[Jay Tea]

Originally Posted by Dropbear

The gallic tendency? The GALLIC tendency? (voice rises in pitch at the outrageous effrontery of that statement)

Oh heaven forfend that anyone but the French would ever try to rewrite history to overinflate the heroism of their military. Dear me no - that sort behaviour is just not done in english speaking countries.

Good point. Given the structure of this enquiry I think it's safe to say we're looking at something of a duffer-kid one way or another.

I'd go to town, but I kinda glutted on the whole US French Coward 'Freedom Fries' thing years ago. Amazing how little so many opinionated individuals actually know about military history, and the constructs behind it...

[Cyrano]

While on several occasions (like the heroic last stand of the officer Cadets at Saumur in 1940 or the battle of Bir Hakeim in 1942) the Germans showed great respect and admiration for their french opponents, in any case these Germans were members of the regular armed forces - Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine.

I seriously doubt the SS or Gestapo goons who tortured Resistance fighters would show any kind of respect for a courageous enemy. Their style was rather to get enraged by their lack of success, then retaliate on their victim's family or any random hostage they could put their hands on.

No, really, I never heard of such a story. Usually, those who wouldn't speak - and hadn't died at the hands of their tormentors - were either sent to a death camp or shot. In every french town, you have streets and squares named after someone fusillé par les Allemands en 194.. (shot by the Germans in 194..).

Finally, I second Dropbear and Jay Tea - the whole post reeks of good ole' French Bashin'. And it's La Marseillaise, by the way.

[Troberg]

I seriously doubt the SS or Gestapo goons who tortured Resistance fighters would show any kind of respect for a courageous enemy.

I'm not so sure about SS, as they were trained to value loyalty and self sacrifice and other such "warrior virtues" above all else. They might very well have saluted him.

Overall, in war (and after war), it's quite common to feel closer to the enemy than to the civilians on your own side. The enemy at least understands what you are going through. I've seen several accounts of former enemies meeting after a war and feeling like old friends (of course, it doesn't always play out like that).

For instance, I saw an interview with the man who shot down the top scoring Italian ace during WW2 where he described when he later met what remained of the Italian squadron. He was, naturally, quite nervous before the meeting, but they met as friends, with an understanding that their wartime experiences had not been their choice, it had been forced upon them by the circumstances.

[Zachary Fizz]

Originally Posted by Troberg

I'm not so sure about SS, as they were trained to value loyalty and self sacrifice and other such "warrior virtues" above all else. They might very well have saluted him.

Here's how your "warriors" saluted people, Troberg:


Le Paradis massacre

Wormhoudt massacre

Ardennes massacre

Malmedy Massacre

Gardelegen massacre

Marzabotto massacre

Sant Anna di Stazzema massacre

Distomo massacre

Oradour sur Glane massacre

Lidice massacre

Razing of Warsaw

That's just some of the massacres perpetrated by the military parts of the SS. I haven't even put up an exhaustive list of them, let alone linked to such well known crimes as the Holocaust. I would have done, but to be honest I feel physically sickened by the crimes listed above and don't want to spend more time reading of them right now.

[Cyrano]

I have to agree with Zachary.

Of course the SS had a cult for military virtues, but for them, these virtues included giving up your conscience and humanity as well as being cruel, brutal and totally merciless to anyone their considered "inferior" (the whole mankind, in fact, as they saw themselves as "super-human").

In their books, showing any sign of compassion was an unforgiveable weakness.

As for the Waffen-SS some consider a little "less bad" than the guys of the Black Order per se, they were a mixed bag of nazi-fans, adventurers and common criminals, and were no better than the mercenaries who killed, raped and ransacked across Germany during the 30-Years War.

[UEL]

Originally Posted by Troberg

Overall, in war (and after war), it's quite common to feel closer to the enemy than to the civilians on your own side. The enemy at least understands what you are going through. I've seen several accounts of former enemies meeting after a war and feeling like old friends (of course, it doesn't always play out like that).

I don't buy it. All the accounts I come across have the soldiers/sailors/airmen meeting after 40+ years. That's a long time to heal wounds.

As for feeling closer to the enemy, it is damned hard to. After all, he is trying to get the better of you. I was in the Balkans 8 years ago and now I still have trouble seeing the Croats, Serbs, Slovenians and Macedonians as peers in our fight in Afghanistan. It is through their hard work in this theatre that I have come around and have started to respect them, not because we stood on opposite sides of a valley in '00.

I feel closest to the US, UK, Dutch, German, French, Belgian, Australian, New Zealand, Danish, Estonian, Polish and Slovakian soldiers who lined the tarmac tonight as we saluted a fallen Canadian at our ramp ceremony. I feel closer to the Canadian people who will line the highway of heroes in two days to provide the family of Sgt Shipway the support they need in their time of grief.

I feel no empathy for the fighter that put that bomb in the road. I feel, however, for the people of this province who have to put up with the tyranny of the Taliban, and suffer the fighting that is going on here.

If it is someone I'm going to meet in 40 years, it is the farmer in the Panjwayi district that I want to commiserate with.

I don't buy your explanation.

*Sorry for the vent, but saying farewell to the fallen tonight has been hard.

[Embra]

Originally Posted by snopes

...had such a thing happened, the hero would be on their stamps and currency,
if not in statue in every one vinyard village in Provence.

Why would the French use the standards of the SS or Gestapo to judge the heroism of one of their fighters?

"Look lads, we've got to choose a resistance fighter for the next set of stamps - any ideas?"

"What about that guy the SS saluted for his bravery? I trust their standards any day of the week. When it comes to warrior virtues that SS lot knew what they were on about..."

"Excellent idea, mon brave."

[Salamander]

Originally Posted by UEL

I don't buy it. All the accounts I come across have the soldiers/sailors/airmen meeting after 40+ years. That's a long time to heal wounds.

I think the circumstances surrounding enemy combatants during WWII are somewhat different to the circumstances in Afghanistan or Iraq. Not that I would expect those feelings of "comraderie" to be universal amongst the WWII vets either.

[Troberg]

Here's how your "warriors" saluted people, Troberg

I'm not defending them in any way, just putting their mindset in a context. They were trained, or, more accurately, indoctrinated to value a fighting spirit above all else, to value strength and despice weakness. I don't really agree with that mindset, but it does fit with honouring enemies who showed such qualities. It's not a matter of them being less bad than the Gestapo, it's a matter of them having a cult of strength mindset, while Gestapo was more "anything that gets the job done".

I don't buy it. All the accounts I come across have the soldiers/sailors/airmen meeting after 40+ years. That's a long time to heal wounds.

From wikipedia on Manfred von Richthofen:

In common with most Allied air officers, Major Blake, who was responsible for Richthofen's remains, regarded the Red Baron with great respect, and he organised a full military funeral, to be conducted by the personnel of No. 3 Squadron AFC.

Richthofen was buried in the cemetery at the village of Bertangles, near Amiens, on 22 April 1918. Six airmen with the rank of Captain — the same rank as Richthofen — served as pallbearers, and a guard of honour from the squadron's other ranks fired a salute. Other Allied squadrons presented memorial wreaths.

I was in the Balkans 8 years ago and now I still have trouble seeing the Croats, Serbs, Slovenians and Macedonians as peers in our fight in Afghanistan.

Former Yugoslavia is a sad case, a war escalated to a point where people fought rather than nations. Most wars are fought between nations and people just get stuck in the middle, former Yugoslavia was fueled by individual hate.

Not that I would expect those feelings of "comraderie" to be universal amongst the WWII vets either.

Neither would I. I would expect it to be most prominent on the fronts where the fighting was the cleanest, or on the minor fronts where they actually got to recognize their opponents (such as fighter pilots in some isolated areas).

[Pixiesnix]

I just came in to say that when I read the thread title, I thought the Germans were somehow torturing the Resistance fighter by doing the Nazi salute.

[UEL]

Originally Posted by Troberg

Former Yugoslavia is a sad case, a war escalated to a point where people fought rather than nations. Most wars are fought between nations and people just get stuck in the middle, former Yugoslavia was fueled by individual hate.

It may be a translation point, but nation refers to a group of people unified by ethnicity, whereas nations are not necessarily states. I think you mean state in your example above.

That being said, Yugoslavia was a collection of 8 states, joined into a union. So, the rivalries that ensued were between nations, and with the exception of the ugly time in Bosnia, predominately against states.

Back to your point, it was against the Croatian backed Bosnian (Croat) Army that I had my duty. And I'm missing the love.

Reference Manfred von Richthofen, I would highly recommend finding a copy of The Red Knight of Germany by Floyd Gibbons. Excellent read.

Onto my point about Richthofen, the funeral was the custom of the day. If you follow much of the battles of WWI, there was still quite a bit of honour bound tradition that you buried the officers and men of the enemy in the same traditions as you would bury your own. It was not voluntary, but directed. There are photos after the Dieppe Raid where the Germans held military funerals for the Canadian soldiers who died in that battle. Even today, we (Canadians) are mandated to perform our military funerals for fallen members of enemy forces if the situation permits.

I would submit that it is a relic of tradition, rather than respect.

Neither would I. I would expect it to be most prominent on the fronts where the fighting was the cleanest, or on the minor fronts where they actually got to recognize their opponents (such as fighter pilots in some isolated areas).

But you stated above that it was common, in fact common to the point where those vets would identify with their enemy more than the civilians of their own country. I'm not sure of your point any more.

[Troberg]

It may be a translation point, but nation refers to a group of people unified by ethnicity, whereas nations are not necessarily states. I think you mean state in your example above.

Probably, although factions would probably cover it even better.

But you stated above that it was common, in fact common to the point where those vets would identify with their enemy more than the civilians of their own country.

Common is a fickle word when it comes to large numbers. I meant it as "something one hears of relatively commonly", which, of course, given the large numbers involved may not actually reflect the views of a majority. After all, it's even more common to hear about atrocities than it is to hear about troops playing football at Christmas.

What I was trying to get at was that it's common enough to make the story in the OP possible, it was certainly not something that never happened. If it (the OP story) really happened is something we'll probably never know for sure, we can just try to estimate some kind of probability.

[UEL]

Originally Posted by Troberg

What I was trying to get at was that it's common enough to make the story in the OP possible, it was certainly not something that never happened. If it (the OP story) really happened is something we'll probably never know for sure, we can just try to estimate some kind of probability.

That's a fair point that I can agree to. Common is truly a relative word, and your understanding is different than mine, but I think we can say we hit "common" ground on your point.

[catty5nutz]

Okay, someone correct me if I am wrong here.

I remember a book I once read Carve Her Name With Pride [I think there was a movie as well], about SOE agent, Violette Szabo who worked with the French Resistance. Captured after a gun battle by the Nazis, a young SS man or soldier [I am not sure which], openly admired her courage, and offered her a cigarette.
Szabo was later tortured by the Gestapo, and executed at Ravensburck concentration camp.

[DadOf3]

Originally Posted by UEL

I feel closest to the US, UK, Dutch, German, French, Belgian, Australian, New Zealand, Danish, Estonian, Polish and Slovakian soldiers who lined the tarmac tonight as we saluted a fallen Canadian at our ramp ceremony. I feel closer to the Canadian people who will line the highway of heroes in two days to provide the family of Sgt Shipway the support they need in their time of grief.

*Sorry for the vent, but saying farewell to the fallen tonight has been hard.

May I thank you once again, my friend, for your service to our country. I grieve whenever I read of another casualty, but how much harder it must be for those of you who are there.

All the best.

[Troberg]

May I thank you once again, my friend, for your service to our country. I grieve whenever I read of another casualty, but how much harder it must be for those of you who are there.

Me too. Even though I might not agree to the politics, the people dying, on both sides, are still people, and are just stuck in the grinder turned by their respective leaders.

[PointySextant]

I could believe the Germans, even SS, giving military honors to an enemy soldier, but this is just to vague.

Singing the Marseillaises is something I can't see them doing, as it would even contravene the tradition of giving military honors to the honored fallen of the enemy from World War 1.

Also important is the fact that there is no mention made of the military status of the prisoner here. I can't imagine military honors being given during World War 2 to a civilian saboteur. A military saboteur is stretching it a little, but a civilian is rather hard for me to believe.

Finally, instances like this are almost always recorded for posterity by the military historians of the military involved, so the fact that this prisoner is nameless is a big bone of contention. His name should be one of the sole facts we have up front about him. The Germans would have known, and if they had respected him enough to give him honors, they would have recorded the incident in the official history of the unit.