For Some Jews, It Only Sounds Like ‘Taboo’

snopes · #1 16 July 2008, 07:05 AM

“I’d say, ‘If you get a tattoo, you can’t be buried in a Jewish cemetery,’ ” said Liz Carnes, the owner of a video equipment company in Carlsbad, Calif. “For no real reason, just that’s what my parents told me.”

Nearly every Jew, from those who go to synagogue only on holidays to those who dutifully follow Jewish law, has heard that adage. It has deterred many from being inked, even as tattoos have become widespread among N.B.A. players and housewives alike.

But the edict isn’t true. The eight rabbinical scholars interviewed for this article, from institutions like the Jewish Theological Seminary and Yeshiva University, said it’s an urban legend. It was most likely started because a specific cemetery had a policy against tattoos. Jewish parents and grandparents picked up on it and over time, their distaste for tattoos was presented as scriptural doctrine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/fashion/17SKIN.html

catty5nutz · #2 16 July 2008, 06:18 PM

If that were true, it would mean that many Jews who had survived the Holocaust couldn't be buried in a Jewish graveyard, as many of them were tattooed while in the camps.

ULTRAGOTHA · #3 16 July 2008, 06:32 PM

Jewish law can be extremely pragmatic. I seriously doubt even cemeteries with "no tattoo" rules would exclude a person who didn't choose to get a tattoo.

Tarquin Farquart · #4 16 July 2008, 06:41 PM

I've heard this before, but assumed it was only true for "ultra-Orthodox" (does such a term even exist?) Jews.

RivkahChaya · #5 16 July 2008, 07:06 PM

The edict against tattoos is very strong in the Jewish community, I can say that, but it has never applied to Holocaust tattoos. The direction against tattooing was against decorating your body, which is supposed to be fine just as it is (exception: Torah says baby boys are supposed to be circumcised). It may go way back, because a lot of Jewish rules have to do with NOT being like some other group, so we can be distinct. I even heard once (although this could be a UL) that to wording of baptismal ceremonies in the Middle Ages led Jews to believe that babies were being marked or tattooed in some way, and there was a fear that a tattoo could lead one to be mistaken for a Christian.

The tattooing by the Nazis just reinforced the general "tattoos are bad" thinking.

But even a synagogue with a strict policy against tattoos wouldn't exclude anyone tattooed against his will from its cemetery. It also wouldn't exclude a convert who was tattooed before conversion.

There's also a general feeling against piercing-- there's even a line somewhere in the Talmud that specifically exempts earlobe piercing. I'm not really sure why. I imagine if Jews had been around a lot of groups that practiced ritual scarification, that would be frowned upon as well. Like I said, a lot of rules are there just to keep us separate and distinct.

I still don't want a tattoo.

AnglRdr · #6 16 July 2008, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

The edict against tattoos is very strong in the Jewish community,

But didn't the article say that is a UL?

KKHB · #7 16 July 2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

The edict against tattoos is very strong in the Jewish community, I can say that, but it has never applied to Holocaust tattoos.

I was of the belief that this is the reason, or rather one more reason that tattoos were used in this manner during the Holocaust. It was one more insult/injury to the Jewish who would then no longer be "pure". Of course that itself might have also been an urban legend.

Quote:

The tattooing by the Nazis just reinforced the general "tattoos are bad" thinking.

This probably makes more sense than what I was led to believe then.

Quote:

But even a synagogue with a strict policy against tattoos wouldn't exclude anyone tattooed against his will from its cemetery. It also wouldn't exclude a convert who was tattooed before conversion.

Just as an amusing aside, I was at the pool at my complex the other day where it was obvious I have no tattoos. That is a rare thing in this community where even the high school students are sporting ink. I was approached by a girl who very sheepishly asked me if I was Jewish. I thought that was an odd thing to ask a stranger, but answered her questions. It turns out she was merely wondering about my lack of tattoos and being Jewish was the only reason that came to her mind. She is about 13 I would guess, and she didn't believe me when I said I just didn't want one.

Natalie · #8 16 July 2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

But didn't the article say that is a UL?

The article said that it was not a violation of Jewish law. It could very well still be a violation of Jewish custom.

musicgeek · #9 17 July 2008, 01:19 AM

I remember this being a major objection by some to the portrayal of Mary Magdalene in the movie The Last Temptation of Christ - according to the objectors, as a Jew, she wouldn't have been tattooed.

(I googled for a picture of Mary from the film, but the only one I could find in which the tattoos were clearly visible was also NFBSK/NSFW.)

RivkahChaya · #10 17 July 2008, 02:15 AM

It's a movie. I don't think Mary Magdalene had collagen implants in her lips, either.

DAnnino · #11 17 July 2008, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

The edict against tattoos is very strong in the Jewish community, I can say that, but it has never applied to Holocaust tattoos. The direction against tattooing was against decorating your body, which is supposed to be fine just as it is (exception: Torah says baby boys are supposed to be circumcised). It may go way back, because a lot of Jewish rules have to do with NOT being like some other group, so we can be distinct. I even heard once (although this could be a UL) that to wording of baptismal ceremonies in the Middle Ages led Jews to believe that babies were being marked or tattooed in some way, and there was a fear that a tattoo could lead one to be mistaken for a Christian.

The tattooing by the Nazis just reinforced the general "tattoos are bad" thinking.

But even a synagogue with a strict policy against tattoos wouldn't exclude anyone tattooed against his will from its cemetery. It also wouldn't exclude a convert who was tattooed before conversion.

There's also a general feeling against piercing-- there's even a line somewhere in the Talmud that specifically exempts earlobe piercing. I'm not really sure why. I imagine if Jews had been around a lot of groups that practiced ritual scarification, that would be frowned upon as well. Like I said, a lot of rules are there just to keep us separate and distinct.

I still don't want a tattoo.

Well said, RivkahChaya. And I don't want a tattoo either. Not because of Jewish law or custom, but because if everyone's getting them, then I won't. Not only that, but I was taught when I was at Norwich that professional officers do not have visible tattoos. That applies mainly toward the military, but many law enforcement agencies also prohibit visible tattoos, or tattoos that are offensive.

Besides, I hear they HURT!

Tarquin Farquart · #12 17 July 2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RivkahChaya

It's a movie. I don't think Mary Magdalene had collagen implants in her lips, either.

You'll be saying Judas didn't look like Harvey Keitel next...

musicgeek · #13 17 July 2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart

You'll be saying Judas didn't look like Harvey Keitel next...

And Willem Dafoe was totally wrong for the role - everyone knows Jesus looked just like Max von Sydow!

Just to clarify, the objection wasn't mine. I was merely trying to illustrate that I had heard several mentions of the Jewish tattoo taboo back in 1988.

RivkahChaya · #14 17 July 2008, 06:23 PM

Say "Tattoo taboo" five times fast.

Dr. Dave · #15 17 July 2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarquin Farquart

I've heard this before, but assumed it was only true for "ultra-Orthodox" (does such a term even exist?) Jews.

Not really, but in addition to the major movements (Orthodox is the most "stick to halacha- see below" of them) and within them there are groups that are more so. So "ultra-Orthodox" generally refers to those who are most strict in interpretation and application to modern life (or rejecting of modern life) of Jewish law. it is not a homogenous or singularly organized group though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnglRdr

But didn't the article say that is a UL?

No, it said that the law that "you can't be burried in a Jewish cemetary with a tatoo" is a UL. Whether it is a violation of Jewish law to have a tatoo is still in question, but we bury most sinners and saints alike. The article even quotes the relevant lines of the Torah to explain why a tatoo might be a violation of Jewish law.

Some general things y'all might need to know to understand the above:

1. There is no "buck stops here" authority on Jewish Law, analagous to say Papal declaration.
2. Jewish law (the term is halacha) is not just what is written in teh Torah, but the "oral law" and all the commentaries, and there were not even agreements back in the day when these things were written, much less now. Just an example concerning kosher: Teh Torah says "you shall not cook a kid in its mother's milk." The literal rule would be no meat and milk of the same kind, but goat milk with beef is OK. But the rule in the Talmud is no meat of any kind with milk of any kind (not including human BTW). And most but not all included poultry but not fish in the prohibition (so no chicken with cow milk), but not at least one major commentator agreed (Shammai.) Nevertheless, if you ask any person knowledgeable of mainstream Judaism if chicken parm is kosher, the answer would be "no."

Similarly, does the quoted text in the article mean no tatoo? Who knows?

Even today, when there is a question of how does a specific halacha apply to a specific situation, the answer is ultimately "consult a rabbi."

3. There are different movements in Judaism. Reform is not a halachic movement- they do not claim that halacha is the final say. Orthodox is. Conservative sort of is, but allows for a more liberal interpretation in many ways.