Origin of "hir" - gender neutral pronoun?

[Buckle Up]

Another ULMB user told me that the word "hir" has been used before on this board as a gender-neutral possessive pronoun. Does anyone know who invented this, where it comes from, and/or if it's been used by any publications or websites besides this one?

I'm a writer and editor, and it's always bulky and awkward when we have to use "his/her" but people get their feathers ruffled when we just say "his". The concept of a new word for this intrigues me. Of course, we'd need another new word for the non-possessive, the regular pronoun, him/her - perhaps hem? hirm?

Any comments?

[Ana Ng]

I don't know where it came from but independent of one another a) it grosses me out and gives me the heebie-jeebies; and b) it reminds me of furries. Furries don't gross me out per se, but that word does.

[Ryda Wong, EBfCo.]

Seriously, and I know it is entirely grammaticaly incorrect, but I use their and it as a neutral. I.E.: Cute baby, what's its name?

Hir seems off to me too, though it is far better than her/his or just his.

I don't know the origin of hir, but I've seen it used before in theory type stuff.

[vison]

Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.

Seriously, and I know it is entirely grammaticaly incorrect, but I use their and it as a neutral. I.E.: Cute baby, what's its name?

Usage is proving you correct.

I fight Crimes Against English, but on this one, I bow to necessity.

Says here the first use of "hir" on Usenet was in 1981. The nominative form is usually "ze" or "sie." I don't know if it was a Usenet coinage or migrated from somewhere else, though.

Personally I don't care for them and don't use them, but once you get used to them in forum postings they're readable enough.

[Dog Friendly]

My first encounter with the word "hir" was in a science fiction short story called "With the Bentfin Boomer Boys on Little Ol' New Alabama", by Richard A. Lupoff. It was anthologized in Harlan Ellison's collection: "Again, Dangerous Visions". This would have been in the late 1970s.

The creature to which it referred was a dead human male body, animated by a female extraterrstrial symbiont. "Se" was the equivalent of "He" or "She", "hir" was used for "Him", "His" or "Her".

To my ear, it sounds clunky and affected. I'm not surprised it didn't catch on.

I try to employ a plural construction whenever possible, such as "musicians should leave their instrument cases...", etc.

Dog Friendly

[Hans Off]

It is almost as repugnant to me as the word "waitperson"

[rhiandmoi]

Well I like it, and mind pronounce it as hear (as opposed to her, because what would be the point of that?). I also like s/he but mind pronounce it tse, so I guess I could go with ze instead.

[Ryda Wong, EBfCo.]

Originally Posted by Hans Off

It is almost as repugnant to me as the word "waitperson"

Waitperson hir waitperson hir congressperson hir police officer hir......

Sorry. Totally could not resist.

[Hans Off]

Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo.

Waitperson hir waitperson hir congressperson hir police officer hir......

Sorry. Totally could not resist.

Stop that now, or I will throw you down a personhole.

[inkrose115]

Originally Posted by Hans Off

It is almost as repugnant to me as the word "waitperson"

Glad I'm not the only one. That sort of thing just seems to bug me. The more they go out of the way to be gender neutral (try his/her, it, or even use his, fireman, actor if it can be asumed you eman both genders). Sometimes I get annoyed with feminists too, especially ones who seem to cocentrate less on gender equality and more on being a total NFBSKing jerk to nice guys. Or the ones who absolutely insist on stupid words like 'herstory' or wimmin/wymin. If you can't be bothered to look up a word's history...

[Start OT rantage]
One girl was kicking this guy around, like serious abuse. "He's a man, so if he hits me that makes him a jerk."
"No, that makes him a nice guy who is never going to hit you. What does that make you?"

Inside I was thinking; I'm a woman. You're a woman. That's a guy. Maybe you skipped biology and that's why you don't see the difference. Trying to prove that you're better just because he's a guy ain't helping your case any m'am. Seeing as you're annoying me.

Men and women are different. That's a fact of life. We think differently, we learn differently, we're built differently because of horomones. Although there are no abosolutes. If someone feels like they're in the wrong body, then hopefully no one will stop them from being themselves. But jamming a square peg into a round hole, and a round peg into a triangular hole is not helping. (I always think of trangendered people as their chosen gender, so no problem there).
[End OT rantage]

[landmammal]

Originally Posted by inkrose115

Or the ones who absolutely insist on stupid words like 'herstory' or wimmin/wymin.

Did you see Legally Blonde? Edith (I think that was her name- the granola womyn) suggested "ovester" instead of "semester".

I don't like words like "waitperson" but that's just because it sounds awkward to me. I have no problem with "server" as a replacement.

I think I see FourKitties use "hir" more than anyone else here.

[Ryda Wong, EBfCo.]

Originally Posted by inkrose115

\
Men and women are different. That's a fact of life. We think differently, we learn differently, we're built differently because of horomones.

Well, except for the fact that that's a bunch of adult cow poo.....

Sorry, but individuals are different from other individuals. end of story. Trying to say our actions, thoughts and desires are based on biology is, for the most part, a bunch of hooey.

Oh, and feminists don't have an issue with nice people. We do take issue with the Nice Guys (TM), who like to whine about how they buy flowers and candy and listen to the girl's boring conversation, so, why, oh why, can't they get laid!?!

We also get annoyed when people with no real depth of knowledge on the subject make baseless claims and then claim that people who aren't versed in our philosophy belong, in fact, to our philosophy.


But, hey, that's neither here nor there.

[TwoGuyswithaHat]

Originally Posted by Hans Off

It is almost as repugnant to me as the word "waitperson"

I think the only word change of that type that bothers me is when fisherman was shortened to fisher. I kept wonder why the east coast suddenly had a large number of working rodents

[Sister Ray]

It's in The Canterbury Tales, but there it means "her".

Sister "chauceraholic" Ray

[Ieuan ab Arthur]

Hi All:

Originally Posted by TwoGuyswithaHat

I think the only word change of that type that bothers me is when fisherman was shortened to fisher. I kept wonder why the east coast suddenly had a large number of working rodents

[Hijack]Actually, they're working weasels[/Hijack]

Ieuan "Weasels is so cute " ab Arthur

[Seraphina]

Originally Posted by TwoGuyswithaHat

I think the only word change of that type that bothers me is when fisherman was shortened to fisher. I kept wonder why the east coast suddenly had a large number of working rodents

Don't think martens are rodents............

[BamaRainbow]

Originally Posted by Buckleupp

Another ULMB user told me that the word "hir" has been used before on this board as a gender-neutral possessive pronoun. Does anyone know who invented this, where it comes from, and/or if it's been used by any publications or websites besides this one?

I'm a writer and editor, and it's always bulky and awkward when we have to use "his/her" but people get their feathers ruffled when we just say "his". The concept of a new word for this intrigues me. Of course, we'd need another new word for the non-possessive, the regular pronoun, him/her - perhaps hem? hirm?

Any comments?

Author Peter David writes an original Star Trek series, "Star Trek: New Frontier" (original in the sense that the majority of the characters are NOT from any of the established Trek series) and includes a character from a hermaphroditic alien species, the Hermat. The character's name is Burgoyne 172 and the pronouns used are "s/he" (nominative case) and "hir" (objective case).
An example:
S/he decided that it was because it was the way hir own people, the Hermats, had made hir feel unaccepted, even excluded, from the rest of hir race simply because s/he wasn't as stodgy as the rest of -- (Star Trek: New Frontier #12, Being Human, Peter David

After a decade or so of "New Frontier", the usage seems so natural that it doesn't phase me. It did take some time with the first few novels, but now, not so much.