Innocent gestures can translate poorly, traveler warns

[snopes]

In Sydney, Australia, I simply hailed a taxi, opened the door and jumped in the back seat. The driver narrowed his eyes. "Where to, mate?" he asked in a voice that could chill a refrigerator.

In Marrakech, Morocco, I crossed my legs during an interview with a government official. Immediately, a hush fell over the room.

In a restaurant in Mumbai, India, all I did was reach for the nan. A diner at the next table shot me a look that stuck 2 inches out my back.

It took years before I realized what I'd done.

It turns out that in each case I had, unwittingly, committed a faux pas. To varying degrees, I had offended my hosts. My only comfort is my ignorance. I take solace in Oscar Wilde's observation that a gentleman is someone who never gives offense -- unintentionally.

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-tr-insider20apr20

[ganzfeld]

From the OP:

During the Middle Ages, it was thought that French soldiers would permanently disarm English bowmen by cutting off their middle and index fingers, the ones they used to draw the bowstring. Consequently, the English were said to celebrate battlefield victories and taunt the French by displaying these two digits intact.

Sounds like another tale to me.

[Matt H.]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

From the OP:Sounds like another tale to me.

In my experience, the taunt works the other way. We were in a British-controlled sector, and upon entering post one day, we gave the "Word" sign (a sideways victory sign) to the Brits at the entry-control point. They were nonplussed. That evening, we asked the British EOD team that we played poker with why the offense taken, and they told us about the amputation of fingers by the French.

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Matt H.

In my experience, the taunt works the other way. We were in a British-controlled sector, and upon entering post one day, we gave the "Word" sign (a sideways victory sign) to the Brits at the entry-control point. They were nonplussed. That evening, we asked the British EOD team that we played poker with why the offense taken, and they told us about the amputation of fingers by the French.

That's because the taunt never had anything to do with British or French or bowmen. It simply means "up yours (with these two fingers)" in the same way that the middle finger or fist is used. This whole story of bowmen is exactly that: just a story.

[geminilee]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

That's because the taunt never had anything to do with British or French or bowmen. It simply means "up yours (with these two fingers)" in the same way that the middle finger or fist is used. This whole story of bowmen is exactly that: just a story.

If that were the case, wouldn't the fingers be held together? I always interpreted it as a metaphor for spread legs, meaning again up yours, or get NFSBKed.

[songs78]

I think its kind of cute to think that when you are entering an Aussie cab you will get an Aussie driver.

I had better luck with English speaking cabbies in Europe than I would in Seattle.

But overall this article is junk. Especially this portion.

"It is a common Asian superstition that to place your chopsticks in such a way is bad luck and means that this meal is for the dead rather than the living."

There is no such thing as an Asian superstition. There are Japanese superstitions, Chinese superstitions etc.....You can't lump 2-3 billion people into one culture. Besides only Vietnam, Korea, Japan and China use chopsticks. If you want to feel foolish ask for chopsticks at a Thai restaurant.

[Logoboros]

Originally Posted by songs78

There is no such thing as an Asian superstition. There are Japanese superstitions, Chinese superstitions etc.....You can't lump 2-3 billion people into one culture. Besides only Vietnam, Korea, Japan and China use chopsticks. If you want to feel foolish ask for chopsticks at a Thai restaurant.

While I totally agree that "Asian" is a woefully broad adjective to use here, it certainly seems possible that this a tradition tied to something like Buddhist ancestor worship that is found throughout many different (SE) Asian countries.

I mean, there are plenty of superstitions or beliefs that you could quite fairly call "Western" or "European" even if they don't figure into the cultures of all Western or European nations.

--Logoboros

[songs78]

Originally Posted by Logoboros

I mean, there are plenty of superstitions or beliefs that you could quite fairly call "Western" or "European" even if they don't figure into the cultures of all Western or European nations.

--Logoboros

That may be true but the author of the article went to great lengths to list every single country including Malta but as far as Asia goes it was listed as one monoculture.

In one etiquette class I took, the instructor told us never to assume all of Asia was one monolithic culture and that is the most common fallacy when dealing with foreign cultures. This article does that without explaining that one 1) most of Asia do not use chopsticks 2) most of Asia currently do not practice dead ancestor rituals.

If you show up with flowers at Asian homes, you'll probably be welcomed warmly. Unless, of course, you take white chrysanthemums (they're used only for funerals) or you offer an odd number (considered unlucky in some cultures).

Also the book that he relied on was written in 1991. Here are some of the reviews.

In Japan and Korea, the number 4 is unlucky. Number 4 being omitted in some elevators, Generally even numbers are unlucky. In China, the number 8 is lucky. Hence many Chinese are planning to wed on 8/8/08

[Richard W]

Originally Posted by songs78

If you want to feel foolish ask for chopsticks at a Thai restaurant.

Or in an Italian restaurant in Korea... No, they hadn't just given me a fork because they thought a Westerner couldn't use chopsticks.

[forceflow15]

Originally Posted by songs78

If you want to feel foolish ask for chopsticks at a Thai restaurant.

Funnily enough, I had Thai today for the first time ever, at a school meeting. We had about 20 pairs of chopsticks for 8 people, so at least in OK the Thai have chopsticks.

Granted, I did not pick it up, so I don't know if they got weird looks.

[ganzfeld]

Some of my very favorite chopstick sets are from Thailand. Go figure. (On the other hand, my very favorite set of chopsticks was made in the USA.)

[songs78]

Originally Posted by forceflow15

Funnily enough, I had Thai today for the first time ever, at a school meeting. We had about 20 pairs of chopsticks for 8 people, so at least in OK the Thai have chopsticks.

Granted, I did not pick it up, so I don't know if they got weird looks.

Many Thai restaurants in the US including the Seattle area offer chopsticks for use. But that's primarily because non Thai people request them.

It is worth noting that the Thai eat with a spoon, fork and knife. In Southeast Asia, only the Vietnamese eat with chopsticks, so next time you'll know why your waiter in the Thai restaurant coughs when you ask for chopsticks.

http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/thai1.html

This wikipedia article shows that doing one thing in one country would be considered rude in another country.

[Troberg]

"During the Middle Ages, it was thought that French soldiers would permanently disarm English bowmen by cutting off their middle and index fingers, the ones they used to draw the bowstring. Consequently, the English were said to celebrate battlefield victories and taunt the French by displaying these two digits intact. "

Sounds like another tale to me.

The way I heard it on some documentary, it was not something the French ever did, but that they had promised to do it before the Battle of Agincourt in order to demoralize the English. This had the opposite effect, as the English waved the two fingers at the French in a "Come get 'em" gesture. As the battle went the way it went, we'll never know if the French would actually have gone through with it.

[ganzfeld]

Originally Posted by Troberg

The way I heard it on some documentary, it was not something the French ever did, but that they had promised to do it before the Battle of Agincourt in order to demoralize the English. This had the opposite effect, as the English waved the two fingers at the French in a "Come get 'em" gesture. As the battle went the way it went, we'll never know if the French would actually have gone through with it.

It was the first three fingers that were said to have been threatened. For some reason -- well for the pretty obvious reason that it makes a more believable story -- those accounts (generally emerging in the late 1990's, as far as I can tell) claiming this is the origin of one salute or another have changed the story to one or two fingers.

The point is that the connection to the gesture has never been anything more than a fanciful story. It probably arose when someone heard the story of Agincourt and thought, "That must be how..." Or maybe they just thought it would make a good tale. Some books even take this story back to the Norman invasion so I wonder if even the part about threatening to cut fingers is not true. I haven't been able to find it in any old historical books on the subject, only those printed after 1985. (ETA - Interestingly, the further back you go with this story, the more the accounts say that the archer's whole right hand was threatened with amputation.)

In short: Yes, this story is now in many books and presumably documentaries but, no, it isn't true.

[Don Enrico]

From the OP's article:

When I curled my thumb and index finger into a circle and pointed the other three fingers upward, my intention was to tell the Brazilian hotel clerk that everything had been "OK." That would have worked fine at home in the U.S., but in Brazil it's considered vulgar.

The OK sign is not OK in many other places too, including most of the rest of Latin America, plus Germany, Malta, Tunisia, Greece, Turkey, Russia and the Middle East.

As far as I know (and I'm living here all my life), the OK sign isn't quite commonly used in Germany, but most will understand it, and nobody will take offence. I don't know where Mr Ecenbarger got the opposite impression.

Don "OK is OK" Enrico

[Troberg]

Another sign used in Sweden, although less common now, that might get you into trouble elsewhere, is the "slit across the throat with the thumb". It's used to tell someone to stop their vehicle or stop their engine.

The we have the sign of humping the air while shouting "Yes! Yes! Yes!" as a general sign of happiness over a success. Increasingly more common, but should be avoided in more formal circumstances.

[Richard W]

Originally Posted by ganzfeld

It probably arose when someone heard the story of Agincourt and thought, "That must be how..." Or maybe they just thought it would make a good tale. Some books even take this story back to the Norman invasion so I wonder if even the part about threatening to cut fingers is not true.

The main problem with the idea is that if the two-finger salute gesture did date back as far as Agincourt, then surely it would be known in the USA too? Being known in the UK and Australia / NZ but not North America (do Canadians use it?) suggests - to me at least - that it didn't originate much before the 19th century and might even be a wartime thing (First world war?). There are pictures of Churchill giving the "V for Victory" sign the wrong way round, after all.

By the way, everybody seems to think it means "up yours", as in the one finger gesture - I always thought it meant fairly specifically "f*ck off". Is that just me?

[Friends of Alfred]

Originally Posted by Richard W

By the way, everybody seems to think it means "up yours", as in the one finger gesture - I always thought it meant fairly specifically "f*ck off". Is that just me?

Same here. 2 fingers for eff off, and 1 finger for piss off. Absolutely no idea why though

[hotrod]

Originally Posted by Richard W

The main problem with the idea is that if the two-finger salute gesture did date back as far as Agincourt, then surely it would be known in the USA too? Being known in the UK and Australia / NZ but not North America (do Canadians use it?)

I wasn't even aware that two fingers was considered an insult. To me, it always meant "victory" or "peace".

[musicgeek]

During the Middle Ages, it was thought that French soldiers would permanently disarm English bowmen by cutting off their middle and index fingers, the ones they used to draw the bowstring. Consequently, the English were said to celebrate battlefield victories and taunt the French by displaying these two digits intact.

I take it this quote from the linked article is what put this thread in the "Urban Legends" forum. At least the author didn't try to foist off the "pluck yew" line as well.