![]() |
#1
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Comment: This shows an elephant painting an elephant.
It's a little unbelievable. Is it true? |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
It doesn't look manipulated to me. I think he's done quite the good job!
Better than I could do, in fact. |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
[Zoidberg]He's so talented![/Zoidberg]
I like when elephants do human like things. |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
It seems to be real, but it may be trained behavior. I have never before seen an elephant capable of representative painting, but BBC is carrying the story
Quote:
|
#5
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Pfft. I don't see what's so amazing... I could draw a better elephant than that. I mean, really, that trunk? Put some effort in!
I suspect trained, and also suspect that people should be hesistant about watching any exotic animal performances as, astounding as the stunts can be, often the conditions backstage are much less than glamourous. I'd rather see a talentless elephant artlessly taking a dump than a trained elephant living in poor conditions. I'm not making specific judgments about this one case, since I have no idea what life is like for Pachydermo Picasso here. |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
I agree that it looks legitimate, in that the elephant looks to be doing the painting, but that it has been trained. i doubt very much that an elephant would independently include a flower in its self-portrait.
Even so, that is an incredibly complex and precise series of movements, and the painting is quite beautiful. What surprised me the most was the accuracy of the positioning of the paintbrush. I was also surprised when it repainted a line that was too light in colour. I wondered if a minder somehow instructed it to do that, or if it noticed that the line needed to be redrawn. If the former, then the elephant has a really amazing grasp of language, or they have a very sophisticated communication system. If the later - well that's just incredible. |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
I suppose when we look at something like this, I'm reminded of the arrogance of mankind, thinking that we alone are capable of intelligence to do a painting. It's probably been trained, but aren't we equally trained in some fashion, when we learn to do something?
At first, I thought it was fake, but the later, long shots look real enough. Of course it could have been manipulated, but what would someone have to gain from doing this? |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I think elephants are very bright; they seem to have an understanding of death, and quite likely have a language as well. But there has been no evidence that elephants can understand symbolism like a drawing, although it would be a very interesting study if you could figure out a way to test it. |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
- snopes |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
It seems to be The Asian Elephant Art & Conservation Project - there are more video clips here, and an art gallery too.
The elephant they show painting an elephant there is called Paya, from Thailand, but I can't tell if it's the same elephant (it looks smaller than the one in the OP to me), and the picture is different too. |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Just for a contrast:
The zoo where I worked did public elephant paintings during the on-season, daily. (As far as I know, they still do.) It was *nowhere near* this detailed. These are African elephants, not Asian like in the video, and it's really not much more than "elephant swings a loaded brush around while the zookeeper holds the canvas at different angles" sort of thing. Occasionally the paintings might roughly resemble things, but mostly it's just a bunch of abstract strokes of varying widths and directions. Still pretty neat, and you can buy originals at the zoo gift store, but the argument could be made that it's not really "painting," just a form of unique enrichment. Contrasting this video with a situation like that... I'm practically speechless. |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
They are definitely trained to do this, its no secret. But they are supposedly trained using positive reinforcement, nothing controversial. The money helps fund their protected reserve. Elephants are smart, so they can pick up pretty complex learned behaviors. Even though its trained behavior, just consider the precision and deliberation that they're moving their trunks with. Those are cleaner lines than some humans could make, and proportionally the canvas is pretty small for them, and they don't have fingers or thumbs.
Elephants can paint on their own without training, but its abstract, like a child playing with paint, its not like this. It may look like a simple line drawing to us, but even human artists took a long time to learn tricks like painting the back legs "behind" the front to give the picture depth. Its not something that even a human would pick up from first principles without exposure to it. Consider 2d primitive human cave drawings, in comparison, which are simpler than this drawing. However, I do dispute that the elephant doesn't know that the lines mean anything. Given their intelligence, I think they may be able to recognize what it looks like after its already done. They may not have planned it out themselves, but they can probably understand the end result. Its hard to say without some research though. Different kinds of animals have their own perception of the world and their own intellectual gifts. Last edited by Errata; 01 April 2008 at 03:36 AM. |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Quote:
|
#14
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
erwins |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
But they were NOT designed to show depth, because its not something that occurred to people for thousands of years.
|
#16
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
I hope everyone here is seriously thinking about what it means when you say the elephant was trained to do this. Do you realize how complex and subtle these actions are?
That drawing is far from crude, it has vibrancy and energy in it. I certainly could not do as well if I was asked to draw an elephant. If this is animal training, it is beyond anything I have seen or read about, and I honestly would not be so dismissive about what you are seeing here. If this is training, then you should at least stop and think about how you would go about training an animal to accomplish something like this? |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
Nearly all artists are trained. What kind of criticism is that?
|
#18
|
||||
|
||||
![]()
But that's not to say that this elephant (or that many elephants) can't. (Also, very few animals are capable of any intelligent exercise other animals are very skilled at. Very few animals can build a bee's nest.)
|
#19
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Think about Clever Hans, a story which is loved by those who wish to discount animal intelligence. What Hans did was very intelligent behavior: learning without being trained to respond to very subtle cues from his master. It was not math ability, however, as it first appeared. I do not know of any studies that indicate that an elephant can even recognize the content of a drawing and relate it to real-world objects. Without that ability, it is extremely doubtful that an elephant can relate drawings it does by rote to real-world objects. Perhaps they can, and the tests have just not been done, but you cannot assume that they can do it just because they are able to reproduce what may be to them a meaningless pattern of lines, anymore than you can assume math ability from the fact that a horse can pick up extremely subtle behavioral cues. |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
![]() Quote:
Yes, it means that the animals are very smart to be able to learn and remember this. Elephants are quite smart. But not quite smart enough to just decide what to paint and figure out how to do it. As I mentioned, their freeform paintings look more like abstract paintings from young children. Also, as I mentioned, even human beings didn't figure out some of the tricks in that self portrait for a long time, its not something that you just figure out without exposure to the concepts behind it. |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|