"Creative" Punishment

[nonnieyrissa]

Again I am surprised by how grossly judgemental certain people on this site can be! And as for the possibility that electric could have been angry so be it, this kind of ignorant judgement makes me angry. If you want to jump to conclusions lets make them educated jumps in the very least. First she is taking some approach to help her child, which already puts her a step ahead of many. Second she appears to be wearing nursing shoes and most health care proffesionals do not smoke (was the crack about her ciggerettes because she is black, or because her sons father is a criminal, or neither just some other ignorant jump?) Also when I was 8 I stole a pack of gum, my mother marched me right back to the store making me explain to every one we knew along the way why I was crying, and then apologize to each employee, and finally explain to our priest what I had done. Was I embarrassed? Yes. Did I ever steal again? No. Simple enough logic for me.

[1958Fury]

I don't know if it's a good punishment or not. It's certainly less cruel than some things I've heard of people trying. But there is a well-known psychological theory that people grow into their labels. As in, if you keep telling your child that they're a criminal, then they start to believe it. After all, what do they have to lose at this point? They've already lost any chance at having a good reputation.

Is that a valid concern? I have no idea. I'm just repeating what I remember from my SO's psych textbooks.

[MidgardDragon]

Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella

I think I remember on the old board, a discussion very similar to this. I and someone else were torn apart for stating that we would support "creative" discipline like this.

She's not beating him. She's not yelling at him (only judging by the pictures), she's simply making him stand there with a sign that says what he did.

I am all for it. I would do it in a heartbeat if my kid did something like that.

toni

I would support disagreeing with you (not tearing you apart, although if that's how you perceive it then fine). This type of punishment that is an attempt to embarrass and shame is not helping anyone, IMO. Make him do something constructive, pick up trash/litter, community service, whatever. Making him stand with a sign is not helping him at all.

Second she appears to be wearing nursing shoes and most health care proffesionals do not smoke

Wh-what-what-what?!? You really think that nurses don't smoke? That most nurses don't smoke even? Most nurses I know that are this woman's age do smoke, wether I just know mostly smokers or most nurses her age smoke, I do not know, but trust me when I say, it is not unheard of. Why do her shoes (which just look like white tennis shoes to me) mean she's a nurse anyway?

[nonnieyrissa]

I know nurses who smoke, but I know many many more who dont smoke, hence why I said "Most". As for the shoes, I do not know if they are tennies or not, my point is as they are white and could be considered nursing shoes my jump to this conclusion makes ewntirely more sense than the jump to sadistic chainsmoker. Do I believe she is a nurse? Not particulary! I was pointing out an example of a somewhat logical jump as compared to an ignorant pulled out of thin air jump. It would be appreciated if you actually took the time to read what I wrote instead of every 3rd word before jumping to your own conclusion...lol

Originally Posted by MidgardDragon

I would support disagreeing with you (not tearing you apart, although if that's how you perceive it then fine). This type of punishment that is an attempt to embarrass and shame is not helping anyone, IMO. Make him do something constructive, pick up trash/litter, community service, whatever. Making him stand with a sign is not helping him at all.

We have no ideal what has happened since. This young man could been so embarrassed by having to this that he might just not feel like going around stealing. People said the same thing about the "Scared Straight" program. "You shouldn't scared kids like that. It won't do them any good"

I could say the VERY same thing about community service. I know a kid right now with 600 hours of community services and yes, he's still going out doing stupid things because to him, all he's really losing is a few hours on a saturday.

Edit:
ARe we assuming she's smoking? Because I'm not seeing cigarette.

[Johnny Slick]

How is scaring kids at all comparable to humiliating them? If you scare them, they at least associate "the bad life" with doing bad things. If you humiliate them, at best they associate the humiliation with mom catching them at something and at worst it creates a situation where the boy doesn't care whether he gets caught stealing or worse because either way he's a social pariah and Mom thinks he's going to be like his dad anyway. The key to preventing kids from committing crime is to build up communal ties, not rend them asunder.

If the mom thinks the child is already too far gone and she wants to teach her other children a lesson then I could see the logic in this (although it's still cruel and, yes, sadistic to scapegoat her kid). I simply do not see any way in which a bout of public humiliation like this would have any greater effect than some other form of punishment that doesn't involve putting one's head between a couple of proverbial boards.

ETA: The point of community service is to repay to the society what you took from it when you committed the crime. If the person in question does not really feel guilt for the act, then yes, I agree that community service is probably not the proper answer. Dealing face-to-face with the real consequences might work better: again, I give the example of having to confront the person who you stole the items from and apologize. Still embarrassing, still tightly tied to the crime itself, just not publicly humiliating.

[MidgardDragon]

Originally Posted by Primal

We have no ideal what has happened since. This young man could been so embarrassed by having to this that he might just not feel like going around stealing. People said the same thing about the "Scared Straight" program. "You shouldn't scared kids like that. It won't do them any good"

I could say the VERY same thing about community service. I know a kid right now with 600 hours of community services and yes, he's still going out doing stupid things because to him, all he's really losing is a few hours on a saturday.

Edit:
ARe we assuming she's smoking? Because I'm not seeing cigarette.

You shouldn't humiliate and embarrass kids. Scare them all you want (although I say education is better than scare tactics). The kid also might be so embarrassed by this that he no longer hangs around the respected members of his community but instead hangs with a seedier crowd that is more likely to encourage him to reoffend. And while community service might not deter kids from reoffending any more than this, at least it is constructive. What's happening in this picture isn't constructive for the child or anybody else. What evidence to we have that embarrassing children makes them behave better? I've certainly never seen that be effective.

As for the ETA - I was just responding to the comment about her being a nurse meaning she's a non-smoker. I have no clue why smoking is even a part of the discussion, personally.

It would probably work (community service, education, and what not) if it was applied fairly to all. Watching kids go to juvie hall for the same infraction as their more well off friends gets community service time after time, yeah, makes me want to cause harm to people.

But what it comes down to is that we don't know anything at all. that could not even be his mother in the photo. She could have put him into community services, or mentoring programs, and all else failed. Maybe she wanted to keep him out of the same system that has his father. (and why does "Like Daddy" look so different then the other words?) Who knows? But not everything "conventional" works for everyone.

[SamuelJones]

Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella

If she had tried every option she could think of (and that part of town doesn't look to be the most wholesome)and wasn't getting any help or it wasn't succeeding, then maybe this was the last resort--to which, the "daddy" part would be appropriate.

You do seem to like the "she tried everything else" idea. Your argument seems to be that if she tried everything she thought of to make the situation better and that didn't work then maybe she should start doing things that will make that will make the situation WORSE.

The answer is (Ted Stevens style) NO!

Or maybe the answer isn't "no". Maybe she has other kids in the house and this 13 year old is being such a pita that she just wants to drive him away. If that's her strategy she's executing it beautifully. But if she wants to do what's right for HIM - rather than what makes her feel good for 45 minutes, then she'll find out what is motivating him to steal and she'll deal with that problem.

[ElectricBarbarella]

The smoking came in to play because SamuelJones said "and all he probably did was still her pack of smokes".

And again, I did conceed that we don't know whether she has tried everything or whether this was the last resort.

I've been part of those "Scared Straight" programs and to me, this is no different. I've also seen them on tv shows like Maury and what they do is a heckufalot worse than what this woman is doing. I watched an episode where they had a former gang member on, and the goal was to teach these babes (they were as old as this kid and some younger) that being a gang banger wasn't all they thought. They took these kids to the morgue to see the bodies of dead bangers.

The one body was shot up and full of holes. And the former stood their asking these kids if that's how they wanted to end up.

Now, are you trying to convince me that what the former gang member did was better than what this mom did? I sure hope not.

The Scared Straight programs and what this mom are doing are not different. They both achieve the same end result (or desire to). If there is any difference, it is that this mom is taking the steps herself rather than letting someone else do it. And, the humiliation is no different than taking them "back to where they stole something and making them apologize" to that person because it is still humiliation (it is the only way it works), you still have to do it in public (what mom is seriously going to call the mini-mart up and say "Yeah, my kid stole a pack of gum. can I make an appointment with you for her to bring it back")...

No, not knowing this whole story (which I conceeded to not knowing), and going only by the pictures, I'd say this mom has a pretty firm grip on her son's behavior and is doing her best to correct it.

toni

[SamuelJones]

Originally Posted by nonnieyrissa

was the crack about her ciggerettes because she is black, or because her sons father is a criminal, or neither just some other ignorant jump?

Nobody had mentioned the color of her skin until you just brought it up. I'm the one who made the cigarette comment and I wasn't even thinking of the color of her skin. Yes, now that you mention it I suppose she is African American.

So what?

[SamuelJones]

Originally Posted by Primal

We have no ideal what has happened since. This young man could been so embarrassed by having to this that he might just not feel like going around stealing. People said the same thing about the "Scared Straight" program. "You shouldn't scared kids like that. It won't do them any good"

"Scared Straight" programs for kids have been largely discredited and are extremely difficult to find. But there might still be one or 2 out there. They were in vogue for about 10 minutes 30 years ago.

Originally Posted by Primal

My older sister, who is now 31 with a 14 year old of her own, used to steal anything she wanted that my mother wouldn't buy for her. It was the first "major" thing she had done. My mother went to the stores and put up her photos in stores so they would not allow her to even enter the store. Public embarrassment, you might say? Well, it did stop her from stealing (until she got older).

Bolding mine. And I wanted to ask, did your mother's actions actually help your sister, if she continued the behavior when she got older?

I think that's what the people here see as the problem: this kind of punishment does not solve the root cause for the bad behavior, and can make the kid bitter and more alienated from society and thus more likely to reoffend... If everyone already thinks you're a thief, why not steal?

[ElectricBarbarella]

Originally Posted by starfury

Bolding mine. And I wanted to ask, did your mother's actions actually help your sister, if she continued the behavior when she got older?

I think that's what the people here see as the problem: this kind of punishment does not solve the root cause for the bad behavior, and can make the kid bitter and more alienated from society and thus more likely to reoffend... If everyone already thinks you're a thief, why not steal?

Which I can understand, if this were all she had done. But as I've said, none of us, not even I, know whether this is all she has done. I'm simply basing my responses on the pictures and only the pictures AND looking at it from the perspective of "maybe she has tried everything else".

Let's face it, those in poorer sections of the country, don't get as much help as could be needed. It could very well be that this woman went to some county agent to get help for her son--maybe this was his first time and she felt that if she got help immediately she could nip it in the bud. I do know that most places won't help unless there is a repeat offense--that is, he's already been put in the system.

What if this mother doesn't want him put in the system? What if she wants to get to him before it gets that far? And, she feels this is the only way to do that.

Do I feel it is the best way to handle it, no. But sometimes it might be the only way, especially if you feel you have no other way.

toni

Originally Posted by ElectricBarbarella

Do I feel it is the best way to handle it, no. But sometimes it might be the only way, especially if you feel you have no other way.

Parents should have the most leeway possible in disciplining their kids. All options should be available to teach the kid to not do what is wrong. Whatever it takes to "learn the kid" should be allowed. I can't see how the method in the OP would work, but that doesn't mean it can't.

If the Mom thinks that will work (and the Mom should know best), then more power to her.

[Zachary Fizz]

Originally Posted by Doug4.7

Parents should have the most leeway possible in disciplining their kids. All options should be available to teach the kid to not do what is wrong. Whatever it takes to "learn the kid" should be allowed. I can't see how the method in the OP would work, but that doesn't mean it can't.

If the Mom thinks that will work (and the Mom should know best), then more power to her.

My instinct is to agree with this, Doug, but there are so many examples of utterly stupid parenting which I am sure we can all think of, that I really doubt that every mother really does know best. I really cannot say anything about the woman and boy in the OP, but it does seem to me that a woman whose husband is in jail and whose son is a thief is quite probably in one of the more vulnerable demographic groups - I have no reason to doubt that her heart is in the right place, nor that she knows her son better than anyone, but that doesn't mean she is necessarily well informed about the best ways to motivate and nurture her child.

BTW, does anyone else find it interesting how quickly a UL thread like this one has moved to a soapbox derby type discussion? Is it a given that the OP pics are genuine?

[SamuelJones]

Originally Posted by starfury

Bolding mine. And I wanted to ask, did your mother's actions actually help your sister, if she continued the behavior when she got older?

I think that's what the people here see as the problem: this kind of punishment does not solve the root cause for the bad behavior, and can make the kid bitter and more alienated from society and thus more likely to reoffend... If everyone already thinks you're a thief, why not steal?

Agreed - or in this case not more bitter toward society but more bitter to his mother. It's a nice setup for a runaway situation. He doesn't get the support that he needs from his mother so he goes elsewhere for it (a gang) and that's when he winds up in the worst possible scenario.

Toni will continue to rewrite the hypothetical events that let up to this situation in such a way as seems to suit her argument. I'm not about to engage in that kind of nonsense. There are some kinds of "stealing" that are age-appropriate for a 13 year old. He isn't going to prison for shoplifting. The mother may be at the end of her rope with him but that does not make it a good idea to alienate him in this way. This is the time when children need level-headed parenting.

[imjustasteph]

Obviously, like everyone else here, I don't know the details.

I only know my interpretation.

However, this is what I imagine, for some reason:

Kid steals money out of mom's purse maybe half a dozen times before he gets caught. She's been telling herself her baby wouldn't do that, that surely she spent that twenty somewhere and forgot, but now she's caught him in the act.

She thinks she knows a way not to let it happen ever again.

She says, "Next time you steal money from me, you'll stand in the street with a sign saying .........."

She doesn't expect to have to follow through with it. He'll never do it again!

And he does.

Now she's stuck with the choice: stick to her guns and enforce a punishment she only invented in order to deter the theft from happening, or, don't enforce it, and know that your child now knows you will not follow through with a promised punishment.

I've had similar things happen in my house, though not on this scale.

So, she sticks it out.

[Not_Done_Living]

When i was a young one, i got into all sorts of trouble.
Spankings didn't work.
Groundings didn't work.
Public humiliation (in front of my peers) did not work.
Spending a week in jail worked.

[ElectricBarbarella]

Toni will continue to rewrite the hypothetical events that let up to this situation in such a way as seems to suit her argument. I'm not about to engage in that kind of nonsense. There are some kinds of "stealing" that are age-appropriate for a 13 year old. He isn't going to prison for shoplifting. The mother may be at the end of her rope with him but that does not make it a good idea to alienate him in this way. This is the time when children need level-headed parenting.

What kind of convaluted society do you live in that there is "age-appropriate" stealing? And what other kind of society do you live in that isn't going to send them to jail for said stealing (ok, so let's put jail in quotes--"jail"--juvie, or some other restriction of freedom equivalent to what might be deemed as "prison" to a 13 year old)?

You are justifying theiving by his age. That's just not right, no matter what society you live in. There is no age appropriate level of stealing--stealing is unacceptable in any civilized society.

And punishment should be dished out. You can talk until you are blue in the face, no amount of talking to them is going to work, if they learn that all they are going to get is a "stern talking to".

toni