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  #21  
Old 18 June 2007, 01:46 AM
We'veBeenHad
 
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Originally Posted by Jonny T View Post
I really don't see how wanting to modify your body in whatever way is necessarily indicative of a mental illness. (and what do you mean when you say I "balked...hard"?) not to say the two cannot converge, but assuming one requires the other is a bit of a step IMO. also, I would agree voluntary castration and voluntary amputation are not that different in some respects, tho the psychological effects may be markedly different.
How exactly do you know, and what are, the differences between voluntary castration and voluntary amputation? What are the differences?
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  #22  
Old 18 June 2007, 01:53 AM
Jonny T
 
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Originally Posted by We'veBeenHad View Post
How exactly do you know, and what are, the differences between voluntary castration and voluntary amputation? What are the differences?
the difference is largely psychological. given how much stock is put in gender and sexuality in our culture - "do you have the balls for it?", "hung like a horse", the general importance placed on gender and virility - it would seem that castration would be much more mentally straining than the amputation of some other limb. I may be wrong on this - but I doubt it.
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  #23  
Old 18 June 2007, 03:01 AM
kylethompson
 
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
PC, many explanations are that the part of the body that their removing isn't part of them. They feel that it doesn't fit, and that it shouldn't be there. It would be like you having an extra finger and not wanting it, so you remove it.

Morrigan
I can understand that, but he completly mulitated it. Wouldnt he just want to cut it off, rather than doing... all that?
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  #24  
Old 18 June 2007, 03:33 AM
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Morrigan Morrigan is offline
 
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Why do people create scars? Why do they cut off their skin and purposely create scars?

Same thing, I think.

*I haven't seen the video...I'm at work, and it's been blocked...

Morrigan
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  #25  
Old 18 June 2007, 10:16 PM
kylethompson
 
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Why do people create scars? Why do they cut off their skin and purposely create scars?

Same thing, I think.

*I haven't seen the video...I'm at work, and it's been blocked...

Morrigan
Yeah. It the video, the guy doesnt just cut it off. He hacks it into pieces, cuts open his balls, and pulls them out. It just more violent then I would think.
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  #26  
Old 18 June 2007, 10:52 PM
We'veBeenHad
 
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Ok since you said that (didn't see it the first time) I had to look again. There are at least two separate people on that video (might be 3, I'm not looking again.) You can tell because they cut things off in a different order and use a different thing underneath - one uses a white board, the other a wooden board. I specifically wanted to see what the gonads looked like because I have at least seen some pictures of what they should look like. They might have been just covered in blood (though they were really kind of black) but I don't know if they look real either. At least, they don't to me. Not sure why the one guy attacked the penis with a knife near the top for a bit first, either, but whatever. The one penis looked kind of lifeless and strange (the part where the hand was blocking everything between it and the body so it was a part that could have easily not been real) but that could be from the tying.

I guess it could be lunacy and a whole lot of cocaine, but I'm not really convinced it's all for real either. Though of course we've read of men who've done it in a fit of bizarre passion. Well I wish it weren't for real if it is.
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  #27  
Old 19 June 2007, 01:23 AM
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Morrigan Morrigan is offline
 
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Definately 2 people-although, I think it's just two.

The gonads looked read. And the one you said didn't look real, doesn't, to me.

Not much squicks me out, but that did...

Morrigan
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  #28  
Old 19 June 2007, 02:01 AM
We'veBeenHad
 
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Yeah, that one shot the organ looks very...well, not real. But if the rest is real there's hardly a point in faking a shot.

I'm having trouble finding a picture of testicles (go figure heh) but the pictures I've seen (IIRC) they weren't dark - they looked more like small brains but with a more orangey type of color. So if anyone does find a real picture of a pair (or one) I hope they link to it. I'm still trying.

Yeah, you know, Morrigan it really squicks me out too. In fact, it's been bothering me and I don't like that. If it's fake, fine, but if it is real then I wish to hell I hadn't seen it. (I know I looked; I thought it was going to be like a scar-ification or maybe some kind of piercing thing, not amputations.)

Jonny, I wasn't trying to be an a**hole; it boils down to extreme BME seems mentally "off" to me, and amputations I can't imagine are anything but indicative of mental illness. If it's not mentally ill to want to cut off your nose, I don't know what is. I wonder if any of the voluntary amputees ever want to be scalped? People don't think of that as an amputation but it is...I bet no one wants to do that. I also never heard of women wanting to cut off their clitorises, or even breasts (except for those with the cancer gene), or maybe people think that's just meaningless anyway. I mean the clitoris isn't big like the penis, so what does it matter, right? (I don't agree with that )
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  #29  
Old 19 June 2007, 03:56 AM
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Morrigan Morrigan is offline
 
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The testes looks like the pair of horse ones I saw. They looked like that, only much, much larger...

Morrigan
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  #30  
Old 19 June 2007, 04:14 AM
We'veBeenHad
 
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Ok so we've got one vote for real testes and one for not real. My memory might have failed me - like I say what I saw looked like little brains but sort of orangey. Can anyone produce a picture of naked testes so we can figure it out? I'm having NO luck searching, dammit.
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  #31  
Old 19 June 2007, 04:54 AM
Trixie Tang
 
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I'm not watching the video because injured genitals really bother me, but I agree with Jonny T that there's a huge difference between amputation and genital mutilation. People who practice voluntary amputation claim they're not crazy, they've thought of this carefully they're whole lives, they've already received psychiatric care... But I just cannot see this holds true for a penis or a vagina.

If someone truly believes his/her desire for a life without an arm is perfectly sane, hey, more power to him. But anyone who expresses desire to live life without genitals is certifiable to me. There's just so much identity there that's not present in a finger or toe.

Personally, if someone gave me the choice to either have my leg or vagina destroyed, I'll hoist my leg up to the guillotine myself. I use my vagina way too much, thank you.
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  #32  
Old 19 June 2007, 04:59 AM
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Morrigan Morrigan is offline
 
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Here's some horsie testes: http://patho.vetmed.ufl.edu/teach/ve...ctive/fig6.jpg

So, they're lighter than what I remember.

Morrigan
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  #33  
Old 19 June 2007, 01:40 PM
Jonny T
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by We'veBeenHad View Post
Jonny, I wasn't trying to be an a**hole; it boils down to extreme BME seems mentally "off" to me, and amputations I can't imagine are anything but indicative of mental illness. If it's not mentally ill to want to cut off your nose, I don't know what is. I wonder if any of the voluntary amputees ever want to be scalped? People don't think of that as an amputation but it is...I bet no one wants to do that. I also never heard of women wanting to cut off their clitorises, or even breasts (except for those with the cancer gene), or maybe people think that's just meaningless anyway. I mean the clitoris isn't big like the penis, so what does it matter, right? (I don't agree with that )
I understand your point, I'm just not sure what basis it has. It's unusual and I don't doubt it could be linked to mental illness; I just don't see how or why it would necessarily constitute mental illness in itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixie Tang
I'm not watching the video because injured genitals really bother me, but I agree with Jonny T that there's a huge difference between amputation and genital mutilation. People who practice voluntary amputation claim they're not crazy, they've thought of this carefully they're whole lives, they've already received psychiatric care... But I just cannot see this holds true for a penis or a vagina.
Why not? I mean yeah, due to the identity issues involved I'd say it's a more extreme procedure and should be treated with more caution; but I don't see how it is necessarily indicative of mental illness, any more than amputation or whatever else.

two other things to throw into the mix:

- If, completely hypothetically, we take the view that voluntary amputation/castration IS a de facto sign of mental illness - so what? Should the procedures be prohibited, should people who want them be sectioned, put into therapy, should they be allowed to carry out the procedure regardless, or what?

- How do you feel about sex change operations, and what - if any - comparisons can be drawn with voluntary amputation?

The reason I bring up the second point is that the rationale I've heard for people who voluntarily have limbs removed is that the limb has always felt wrong, that their body was not right with it still there, that they don't feel it is a part of them, and so on. Which has many echoes to the reasons people go through sex changes - that their body simply didn't feel "right" and so felt the need to take steps to correct it.
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  #34  
Old 19 June 2007, 02:18 PM
Trixie Tang
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny T View Post
- If, completely hypothetically, we take the view that voluntary amputation/castration IS a de facto sign of mental illness - so what? Should the procedures be prohibited, should people who want them be sectioned, put into therapy, should they be allowed to carry out the procedure regardless, or what?
I think people who want voluntary amputation should seek psychiatric help to determine if they are in fact suffering from a treatable condition. If the only way to treat the condition is to amputate, then by all means, amputate. I've heard accounts of people doing this to themselves out of fear a doctor wouldn't understand, and that's beyond dangerous. So, no it shouldn't be prohibited.

Quote:
- How do you feel about sex change operations, and what - if any - comparisons can be drawn with voluntary amputation? The reason I bring up the second point is that the rationale I've heard for people who voluntarily have limbs removed is that the limb has always felt wrong, that their body was not right with it still there, that they don't feel it is a part of them, and so on. Which has many echoes to the reasons people go through sex changes - that their body simply didn't feel "right" and so felt the need to take steps to correct it.
I have no opinion of sex change operations, but I think the comparisons are coincidental. Amputation is the removal of a limb or digit, genital mutilation is the destruction of the genitals, and sex changes are swapping out one set for another.

And I think this all has to do with the symbolism of the acts. A limb or digit doesn't represent much beyond utility, and if the removal of it makes a person feel whole and complete, it doesn't matter much. The genitals represent much more than urination and sex, and it seems that the destruction of it represents hatred for not only the specific set of genitals, but hatred for the drives it creates and the gender. Sex change operations are medical procedures, and one set of functional genitals is being traded in for another. I don't know much about trans-gendered people, but it would surprise me if they harbored fantasies of genital destruction with the end goal of just that- a mangled set of genitals. But I guess if someone wants to live life with no genitals, a procedure should be done with a doctor.
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  #35  
Old 19 June 2007, 02:26 PM
Jonny T
 
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On amputation, I would agree that psychiatric examination is absolutely necessary before carrying out the procedure.

I'm not sure the comparsions are that coincidental. In all three cases - voluntary amputation, gender reassignment and castration - you're often* dealing with people who simply don't feel "right" in their own body and need to modify it in some way to correct it. while the particular problem and desired end state is different in all three cases I do think parallels can be drawn.

(* I recognise there are numerous reasons for people to undergo all three procedures; I'm simply basing this on what I've read.)
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  #36  
Old 19 June 2007, 02:51 PM
Trixie Tang
 
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Originally Posted by Jonny T View Post
I'm not sure the comparsions are that coincidental. In all three cases - voluntary amputation, gender reassignment and castration - you're often* dealing with people who simply don't feel "right" in their own body and need to modify it in some way to correct it. while the particular problem and desired end state is different in all three cases I do think parallels can be drawn.
Okay, I agree with that. But what you guys are describing in the OP doesn't really compare to the above. We've discussed amputation on this board before. One thing that rarely happens with someone amputating themselves is the filming of the act, the eroticism of it, and no one goes running into a pizza parlor
twirling their now detached arm above their head. That only seems to happen with genital mutilation.
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  #37  
Old 19 June 2007, 02:58 PM
Jonny T
 
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Originally Posted by Trixie Tang View Post
Okay, I agree with that. But what you guys are describing in the OP doesn't really compare to the above. We've discussed amputation on this board before. One thing that rarely happens with someone amputating themselves is the filming of the act, the eroticism of it, and no one goes running into a pizza parlor
twirling their now detached arm above their head. That only seems to happen with genital mutilation.
Agreed. Which is why, earlier in this thread, I posted the following:

Quote:
The same [that I have no problem with voluntary amputation/castration/etc. for those of sound mind, with appropriate safeguards] was repeated through the discussion. If the person in the OP does not seem balanced, then this does not apply.
My other posts in this thread were specifically to do with We'veBeenHad's assertion that wanting to go through such a procedure necessarily meant someone was mentally ill - not that the person in the OP was or was not mentally stable.
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  #38  
Old 19 June 2007, 03:45 PM
We'veBeenHad
 
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
Here's some horsie testes: http://patho.vetmed.ufl.edu/teach/ve...ctive/fig6.jpg

So, they're lighter than what I remember.

Morrigan
Thanks!! Exactly, that's what I was talking about; they weren't little black clumps like was shown in the video. Rather sort of brainlike lighter colored things. Oh please tell me that means it was faked. PLEASE because this disturbs me greatly.

Trixie FWIW it's a graphic video of men chopping off appendages (after tying them) complete with metal music, which makes it worse. At least two different men. One wanted his penis off and seemed to glory in that, and one didn't mind losing his balls, which I think he didn't realize all the effects of. Do none of these people know what hormones do?
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  #39  
Old 19 June 2007, 03:51 PM
We'veBeenHad
 
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BTW Trixie, agreed - genitals versus limbs, I'll take the loss of limb. But, you know, there's no way to cut off a vagina I mean seriously, you can mutilate the sexual organs but you can't really scoop out and close off the vagina

Jonny, what WOULD constitute mental illness then, in your opinion?
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  #40  
Old 19 June 2007, 07:46 PM
TuFurg TuFurg is offline
 
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Unfortunately I started off with "this is the first video on Snopes I'm not going to watch" but the sick curiousity got the better of me.

What popped into my head was: guilt-ridden pedophile decides to do the right thing??

Whatever the case- I do believe I've officially "seen it all"....
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