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Old 08 June 2007, 02:40 PM
andak01
 
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Default Ayatollah Khomeini pedophilia beastiality comments

I've been reading quotes posted from what is purportedly the book below as well as something called the "Little Green Book". The quotes have Khomeini saying that beastiality and sex with babies is permitted. Specifically, the quotes according to homa.org are said to come from volume four of Tahrir-ol-vasyleh. Shiites contest that there is such a volume 4, although the book itself is known to exist.

So, you look up the Wiki and there's a photo labeled volume 4. Right?

Happens that I know the Arabic numbers. Look at the number on the bottom spine of the book and compare it to the arabic numbers in the second link. It's a 2, not a 4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahrir-ol-vasyleh

http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/tur...c/anumbers.htm

Does this book exist and are the quotes real? BTW, I hate Khomeini, but I think snopes does a real service by busting myths and propaganda.
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Old 09 June 2007, 12:56 AM
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Icon86 Ayatollah Khomeini pedophilia bestiality comments

The book MIGHT exist. But even if it does, I doubt very much that sex with animals or human infants would be regarded as legally or morally permissible. That is, unless it is under special circumstances, although I can't imagine which ones.

B. A. Rainey
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Old 11 June 2007, 04:00 PM
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The book does indeed exist, although my copy of it has disappeared. It's been a long time since I read it and my memories of the content are very dim (except that most of it was extremely ridiculous) but I don't think he condoned bestiality.
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Old 28 July 2007, 05:16 PM
King_Crimson King_Crimson is offline
 
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I know that Khomeni gave a lot of fatwa's (religious rulings) on many many things that, quite frankly, go AGAINST Islam. I know people who own the books, although I have not asked for specific references; because there wasn't really much point! His rulings are not Quranically/ahadith based so, to any Allah-fearing Muslim, should be absolutely useless.

The Quran and ahadith allow marriage/sex with pre-pubescent girls; Quran in 65:4 (arabic) and the ahadith show that Muhammad (who's example Muslims should follow) married a six year old girl when he was 51 years old. This means it is halal (allowed) in Islam. Its not an obligation; but if a man wants to (and can afford it) he can do so.

But, Islam does not allow to my knowledge, any sexual contact with babies or bestiality. In fact the latter is expressly harem (forbidden).

Khomeni, to my knowledge, never provided any evidence as to why he ruled the way he did. A properly formed fatwa will say "here is the ruling and here is the evidence from Islamic texts". Khomeni just said "here is the ruling off you go."


-KC
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Old 28 July 2007, 05:54 PM
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There's weirdos in every religion
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Old 28 July 2007, 06:00 PM
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Is it really a "weirdo" thing, though, when the tenets of the religion say that pedophilia is okay? It's like Christians saying that people who murder abortion doctors are not true Christians when there are in fact several Biblical accounts of defenders of the faith (granted, not exactly the Christian faith, but you don't see Jews bombing abortion clinics, and it's all in the same freaking book) murdering non-believers for "crimes" the modern liberal thinker would view as far less destructive than abortion (chiefly, worshipping other deities).
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Old 29 July 2007, 09:57 AM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Is it really a "weirdo" thing, though, when the tenets of the religion say that pedophilia is okay? It's like Christians saying that people who murder abortion doctors are not true Christians when there are in fact several Biblical accounts of defenders of the faith (granted, not exactly the Christian faith, but you don't see Jews bombing abortion clinics, and it's all in the same freaking book) murdering non-believers for "crimes" the modern liberal thinker would view as far less destructive than abortion (chiefly, worshipping other deities).
One has to remember that the holy books of booth religions were written in another time, where marriage at a very young age was common, although often more as a political gesture than what we today considers reasons to marry. They reflect that set of values, which we have since outgrown.
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Old 29 July 2007, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
One has to remember that the holy books of booth religions were written in another time, where marriage at a very young age was common, although often more as a political gesture than what we today considers reasons to marry. They reflect that set of values, which we have since outgrown.
Well, except in the case of killing others according to the old testaments and versions of the koran at least..
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Old 29 July 2007, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
One has to remember that the holy books of booth religions were written in another time, where marriage at a very young age was common, although often more as a political gesture than what we today considers reasons to marry. They reflect that set of values, which we have since outgrown.
YOU CAN'T SAY THAT, YOU HEATHEN!! MARRIAGE HAS BEEN EXACTLY THE SAME IN ALL ITS FORMS FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS! AND SINCE IT WAS ONE WAY A THOUSAND YEARS AGO THAT AUTOMATICALLY MAKES IT GOOD AND WE SHOULDN'T CHANGE IT!

Heh, sorry
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Old 04 August 2007, 12:22 AM
King_Crimson King_Crimson is offline
 
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Anyone interested can read an English translation of Khomeni's Little Green Book here:

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/The_Lit...ok_Intro.Islam


-KC
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  #11  
Old 04 August 2007, 12:33 AM
King_Crimson King_Crimson is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
One has to remember that the holy books of booth religions were written in another time, where marriage at a very young age was common, although often more as a political gesture than what we today considers reasons to marry. They reflect that set of values, which we have since outgrown.
Hello Troberg,

Yes you are right. Marriage at a very young age was considered fine in those times. However there are some problems when it comes to Islam:

1. Paedophilia was NEVER accepted. Muhammad legitimised this by marrying a child himself, and also the Quran shows its okay too (Quran 65:4)

2. Muhammad is the "best example" for all Muslims to follow for all time. Since Muhammad married a 6 year old girl when he was 51, this is Sunnah (example). Muslims who have the inclination and the money can marry a young girl no matter what their own age is.

3. The Quran is considered the unchanged, unchangeable word of the Islamic deity (Allah) and it is a book "for all time" and for all Muslims to follow. Since the Quran allows Paedophilia and does not set restriction, then Allah is also condoning Paedophilia.

4. Muhammad said that ANY innovation to Islam or the Quran after he died would land the person in hell; therefore Muslims know they are not to change it.

Then you have the problem of Muslims, who believe Muhammad was the best example, having to condemn such actions. They condemn someone they love more dearly than their families and own lives. To condemn this also they condemn their own God.


Just some reasons why we should NOT, in the case of Islam, be thinking "oh, people don't do that anymore".





Ghulan Haider, 11, is to be married to Faiz Mohammed, 40. She had hoped to become a teacher but was forced to quit her classes when she became engaged.




Roshan Qasem, 11, will joing the household of Said Mohammed, 55; his first wife; their three sons; and their daughter, who is the same age as Roshan.




Majabin Mohammed, 13, at left, sits with her husband of six months, Mohammed Fazal, 45, his first wife and their child. Village elders advised him to accept Majabin as payment for a gambling debt.


Source article: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5541006


Just three examples to show that this is sanctioned, even up to this day, in Islam.


Thanks

-KC
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Old 04 August 2007, 01:12 AM
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Aimee Evilpixie Aimee Evilpixie is offline
 
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Hello Kitty

Do they have sex with their very young wives? I could see marrying a young girl but not having sexual relations with her until she's sixteen/eighteen as being not as icky-gross. It's still skeevy, but not as dangerous physically speaking.
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Old 04 August 2007, 01:36 AM
King_Crimson King_Crimson is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Aimee Evilpixie View Post
Do they have sex with their very young wives? I could see marrying a young girl but not having sexual relations with her until she's sixteen/eighteen as being not as icky-gross. It's still skeevy, but not as dangerous physically speaking.

They can marry them at any age, but age of 'adulthood' for females is 9 years old. Once they are 9, they may have sex with them. Here are some Islamic texts where the precedent (Sunnah) comes from:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236

Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

Narrated 'Ursa:

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
These hadith (narrations) are repeated many times with no variation on the ages of Muhamamd's wife Aisha. This means they are Mutawatir (corroborated) and of undeniable authenticity to Muslims. She was 6 years old when Muhammad engaged her, and 9 when he consummated the marriage.


The girls do not even have to have reached puberty!


When a Muslim man divorces his wife, she must wait an 'iddat (waiting period) before she re-marries in order to determine whether or not she is pregnant (so they know who to attribute the child to). This is usually measured by three menstrual cycles. If there is no menstrual cycle present, the answer is in the Quran in this verse:

From the Quran:

65:4: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.


65:4: واللائي لم يحضن" فعدتهن ثلاثة أش

Transliteration: Wa Al-Lā'ī Lam Yaĥiđna


Wa Al-Lā'ī Lam Yaĥiđna

wa ( وَ ) = and

Al-Lā'ī ( وَاللَّائِي ) = for those who

Lam ( لَمْ ) = did not (negation in past tense)

Yaĥiđna ( يَحِضْنَ ) = menstruate.

Yaĥiđna comes from the verbal root H-Y-D ( حيض ) which means "to menstruate".

The addition of prefix "Ya" and suffix "na" to the root "HYD" shows that the word is used in used in third person, feminine gender, plural, imperfective aspect.

The imperfective aspect, by itself lacks any tense feature. [1] The tensed negatives like lam ( لَمْ ) (negation in past tense), lan ( لن ) (negation in future tense), laa ( لَ ) (negation in present tense) combined with imperfectives decide the tense in this case.

Thus lam Yadrus = He did not study.

In the verse 65:4, Lam Yaĥiđna = 'those who did not menstruate'.



Therefore the verse reads: "and those who never had menses" (because they are underage)


More info here: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedoph...n_the_Qur%27an


This becomes even clearer in this Hadith (narration)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63

Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sad, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).


Lastly, Quran 33:49 shows:

O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.



So, 33:49 says No 'Iddat if no consummation. 65:4 says the 'Iddat for prepubescent girls is 3 months. Therefore the exact, literal, unchangeable word of Allah says its fine to marry and have sex with (a) Children (b)who can be pre-pubescent.

Muslims best example, their Prophet Muhammad also did it and said it was fine for others to do.







Sorry for all the information; I thought it was pertinent

-KC

Last edited by King_Crimson; 04 August 2007 at 01:42 AM.
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Old 04 August 2007, 01:43 AM
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Thank you for being so thorough.

And also, ew.
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Old 04 August 2007, 01:49 AM
King_Crimson King_Crimson is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Aimee Evilpixie View Post
Thank you for being so thorough.
You are most welcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimee Evilpixie View Post
And also, ew.
Exactly! Fortunately, of course most Muslims are not inclined to do this sort of thing; but the permission is there if the inclination is.


-KC
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Old 04 August 2007, 04:22 PM
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Just some reasons why we should NOT, in the case of Islam, be thinking "oh, people don't do that anymore".
You forget one detail. Moslem countries still have laws, and these laws supercede the religious laws (with the exception of Saudi and perhaps one or two other nations). The religious texts does not change, but society does.
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Old 04 August 2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by barbrainey View Post
The book MIGHT exist. But even if it does, I doubt very much that sex with animals or human infants would be regarded as legally or morally permissible. That is, unless it is under special circumstances, although I can't imagine which ones.
Like if someone had a 1920s style death ray poised at Mecca and said, "If you don't have sex with this pile of sad eyed basset hound puppies, it's OVER!"?
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Old 04 August 2007, 04:46 PM
King_Crimson King_Crimson is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
You forget one detail. Moslem countries still have laws, and these laws supercede the religious laws (with the exception of Saudi and perhaps one or two other nations). The religious texts does not change, but society does.
Although this is true, most of these countries do not seperate mosque and state. They all have implemented some form of Sharia law (in the case of Saudi full shariat). Check out Pakistan; 4 witnesses required to prove rape. That's right from the Quran (let me know if you'd like the reference).

Usually family/marriage/divorce laws are delegated to Sharia law, whereas true, some other parts are secular law; therefore marriage's like this one are handled by Sharia (Islamic law) which as I have shown, allows this to happen.



Thanks

-KC
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Old 04 August 2007, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Troberg View Post
You forget one detail. Moslem countries still have laws, and these laws supercede the religious laws (with the exception of Saudi and perhaps one or two other nations). The religious texts does not change, but society does.
And in some places, because of religious precedent, the laws get ignored, even by the people who are supposed to enforce the law.
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Old 04 August 2007, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Slick View Post
Is it really a "weirdo" thing, though, when the tenets of the religion say that pedophilia is okay? It's like Christians saying that people who murder abortion doctors are not true Christians when there are in fact several Biblical accounts of defenders of the faith (granted, not exactly the Christian faith, but you don't see Jews bombing abortion clinics, and it's all in the same freaking book) murdering non-believers for "crimes" the modern liberal thinker would view as far less destructive than abortion (chiefly, worshipping other deities).
You wrote this several days ago but I want to comment on it. There is an important distinction in the Old Testament that you forgot, and that is the difference between civil law and vigilantism.

There were, indeed, severe legal penalties for things like adultery, rape, and idol worship, but people governed by the bible have never been allowed to just run around killing offenders without legal saction granted after the testimony of two or three witnesses.

As for the individual cases of God directing a prophet to put the Priests of Baal or some such to death, in 'the same freaking book' the New Testament specifically tells Christians 1, they are no longer bound to the law of the Old Testament (Galatians 5:18), and 2, to obey the rulers of the land in which the are living (Hebrews 13:17). Bombing an abortion clinic or murdering a doctor in cold blood is so far outside of both those things that there is no way you can tell a Christian they are bound to accept them as a part of their faith.
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