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  #181  
Old 11 January 2015, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Rebochan View Post
An opinion poll that drew strangely different conclusions from their own data than you did!
Possibly in part because the pollsters noted that 91% of their respondents said it was not "acceptable for religious or political groups to use violence".

-- Both links to the actual questions are broken; possibly because the poll was taken in 2006. Interesting that Errata thinks that something that happened "almost a year ago" isn't relevant, but a poll taken eight years ago is.

wanderwoman, that's a good read. But I think he's not entirely right that it's about money, other than incidentally. I think it's about power. While money does certainly link heavily to power, this sort of behaviour isn't about prosperity and often reduces it -- it's about people wanting to hold other people's lives and behavior entirely within their control.

I think the desire for this sort of control, while it may be inherent in certain individuals, often comes from an underlying fear: a fear that the existence of any uncontrolled people somehow poses a threat to the terrorist.

-- They've got both Netanyahu and Abbas among those leading the march. This attack may be going to accomplish the reverse of what its perpetrators intended.
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  #182  
Old 11 January 2015, 05:00 PM
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I would agree with you, thorny locust, in that I don't think it's about money. I thought he had a lot of good things to say, but I don't agree with that part either.
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  #183  
Old 11 January 2015, 06:07 PM
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My relatively-local newspaper has this morning (among others) a photo of people in Tunis, Tunisia holding up old print copies of Charlie Hebdo at a rally against the attacks.

Yup, Tunisia. 95% Muslim.

-- in hunting for the image online (it's the one at the top of the page), I also came across this, which I found interesting:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/opinio...ahmed-je-suis-
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  #184  
Old 11 January 2015, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
But I think he's not entirely right that it's about money, other than incidentally. I think it's about power. While money does certainly link heavily to power, this sort of behaviour isn't about prosperity and often reduces it -- it's about people wanting to hold other people's lives and behavior entirely within their control.
But he didn't say it was about prosperity. How only said it was about money to the extent of the perpetrators' wanting to attract donations to fund and grow their terrorist organizations.
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  #185  
Old 11 January 2015, 07:04 PM
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snopes, that's true; and you're right that "prosperity" is somewhat of a different issue -- it's also linked to money, but it's not really the same thing.

He did, however, say:

Quote:
Violence committed in the name of religion is never about religion—it’s ultimately about money.
and I think it's often not ultimately about money; I think it's more often ultimately about power.
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  #186  
Old 11 January 2015, 07:20 PM
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I think we're getting into splitting hairs here -- he essentially said it's about getting money in order to increase one's ability to exert power. Money isn't the end, but it is the means to that end.
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  #187  
Old 11 January 2015, 07:45 PM
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Yea. One of the easiest ways to get power is to have money since money gives you access to the resources to get power. Terror groups rely really heavy on money that they use to get weapons, supplies, recruitment, infrastructure to support the above....
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  #188  
Old 11 January 2015, 08:55 PM
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JK Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, has condemned and mocked the tweet from Rupert Murdoch which insisted that even peaceful Muslims must bear responsibilities for jihadi attacks.

“I was born Christian. If that makes Rupert Murdoch my responsibility, I’ll auto-excommunicate,” she tweeted on Sunday.


http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...lims-christian
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  #189  
Old 11 January 2015, 09:43 PM
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He's Australian, right?

So all you Aussie snopesters, I'm holding you all responsible for him and Mel Gibson!
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  #190  
Old 12 January 2015, 02:40 PM
Zachary Fizz Zachary Fizz is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
What values are you referring to? Do you mean personal religious beliefs that can vary benignly amongst peaceable citizens, or do you mean tolerance, which is an overarching mindset that must be shared by the majority in order to achieve it?
What I had in mind was the prohibition and lack of toleration in Islam for, say, gay rights, womens' rights (at least in the sense used in the west), apostasy, drinking alcohol (which I agree isn't actually listed in the Treaty of Rome but which is a significant part of pan-European culture), free speech and so on, combined with the enthusiasm amongst parts of that group for seeking to impose these on the current majority population when and where possible. In part of London the prohibition on alcohol is "enforced" by gangs of youths, regardless of the religion of the person drinking the alcohol.

I wouldn't distinguish religion from politics or general concepts of tolerance. Islam is all embracing in a way which only the very strictest of Christians or ultra-orthodox Jews might approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
And, while we're at it: I strongly suspect that not all of the "sizeable minorities in the EU who are not interested in its values" are either Muslim, or from populations relatively new to the area; just as I strongly suspect that there are many Muslims and recent immigrants who are there precisely because they are "interested in its values.".
When I used the phrase I was thinking specifically of the Muslim populations of Europe. While East Asian, Afro-Caribbean and non-Muslim south Asian or African immigrants into the EU, or the newly acceded states in Eastern Europe, may have different values from the typical Briton, Frenchman or German, they do not seem to cause significant problems for those minorities or indeed the majority population. In the UK, educational results tend to favour people of non-Muslim South Asian and East Asian origin of White British citizens, as do pro-rated imprisonment rates. But I don't really have much to do with such things.

Quote:

I wasn't at the conference in question, which makes it difficult to judge tone; but very many people will laugh at jokes without thinking much about them, including at jokes about things they don't particularly want to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Embra View Post
I assumed that everyone heard the statement, and that it genuinely got a laugh, but I don't think I find it shocking (although I wasn't in Mr fizz's more awkward position of being one of the "enemy" in the hall!).

I do think that it can be an enormous relief to find yourself surrounded by people whom you can assume share a lot of your experiences: it's the way that the "have you ever noticed...?" stand-up schtick works to unite a room. And if your normal experience is to be a member of a minority group (or at least a group without power privilege in a lot of areas: I don't know where the conference took place), and you are then in a room where you are the majority, then the "Europe, eh?" statement is playing on that bottom-up expression of frustration.
The conference was in a middle-eastern city, and was a rather dour one concerned with matters of sharia. While its central tenet was that the role of sharia should be expanded, the audience members were most definitely not crazed jihadis. They were generally at decision-maker level and occupied positions of responsibility and importance in society; respected clerics and financiers were present. Government ministers had been present for the keynote address but I think they had all gone by the time of the statement about Europe. The audience were influential members of the region's very dominant majority group.

I am confident that the speaker's statement was absolutely not intended as a joke or a way of letting off steam. It was not that sort of gathering. The laughter was in the line of exultation rather than humour.

Quote:
(although I wasn't in Mr fizz's more awkward position of being one of the "enemy" in the hall!).
At that time, although I was emphatically in the private sector, I was very clearly affiliated to the government of an Arab state which described itself as conservative and applied sharia law. For reasons related to my work it was frequently assumed that at the very least I was quite mercenary in my leanings, though the people with whom I worked generally understood that I shared an ideological attachment to the peaceful integration of Islam and the west. I was very much considered part of the in-group at the conference.

In any case, I have a certain amount of practice at being the "enemy in the hall".
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  #191  
Old 12 January 2015, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
while we're at it: I strongly suspect that not all of the "sizeable minorities in the EU who are not interested in its values" are either Muslim, or from populations relatively new to the area; just as I strongly suspect that there are many Muslims and recent immigrants who are there precisely because they are "interested in its values."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz View Post
When I used the phrase I was thinking specifically of the Muslim populations of Europe. While East Asian, Afro-Caribbean and non-Muslim south Asian or African immigrants into the EU, or the newly acceded states in Eastern Europe, may have different values from the typical Briton, Frenchman or German, they do not seem to cause significant problems for those minorities or indeed the majority population.
What I meant was that some of the original populations of EU countries don't agree with the EU values. I find it interesting that you assumed I was talking about recent immigrants even though I specifically said that I was not: I stated that I was talking about people "not relatively new to the area".

-- snopes, I've been nit-picking most of my life; except that often I think it's not a nit, but a basic issue that's so basic it's become invisible. It's certainly true that in this world money translates into power, and vice versa, to a great extent. But the desire to be rich is not the same thing as the desire to have power over others (although the same person may have both desires.) It's perfectly possible to want to be rich but to not particularly care what other people do with their lives. The desire to have complete control over the lives of as many other people as possible is a different creature.
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  #192  
Old 12 January 2015, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
He's Australian, right? So all you Aussie snopesters, I'm holding you all responsible for him and Mel Gibson!
But Mel Gibson was born in, and lives in, the U.S.
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  #193  
Old 12 January 2015, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
It's certainly true that in this world money translates into power, and vice versa, to a great extent. But the desire to be rich is not the same thing as the desire to have power over others (although the same person may have both desires.)
But again, nobody said the terrorists were interested in money for personal enrichment; rather, they wanted it as a tool to use furthering their aims of exerting control over others.
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  #194  
Old 12 January 2015, 04:16 PM
Zachary Fizz Zachary Fizz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
What I meant was that some of the original populations of EU countries don't agree with the EU values. I find it interesting that you assumed I was talking about recent immigrants even though I specifically said that I was not: I stated that I was talking about people "not relatively new to the area".
Oh, I had thought you were seeking clarification of my use of the words, rather than providing a counterpoint. I should add that I had missed that the word "not" early in your sentence was intended to cover the people recently arrived in the EU too. I only posted to share some of my experiences. Perhaps it would have been simpler if I had said "A significant number of high-profile European Muslims have expressed views at odds with the core values of the majority of citizens of the EU, and appear to enjoy a significant following" before going on to detail the views of the people I have recently spoken with about this.

I am sure that there are indeed a number of people who aren't Muslim and don't subscribe to the majority view on some things. But I don't think anyone else is widely considered to be an existential threat. According to today's papers 62% of Germans held that view of Islam in Europe just before the events in Paris. It was my recent conversations with Europeans who had a similar perspective to those Germans which had prompted me to share my feelings of disillusionment and failure.
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  #195  
Old 12 January 2015, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz View Post
I am sure that there are indeed a number of people who aren't Muslim and don't subscribe to the majority view on some things. But I don't think anyone else is widely considered to be an existential threat. According to today's papers 62% of Germans held that view of Islam in Europe just before the events in Paris. It was my recent conversations with Europeans who had a similar perspective to those Germans which had prompted me to share my feelings of disillusionment and failure.
I think that rather goes to prove my point. Isn't one of the EU's values supposed to be that people of all religions are welcome to be part of the EU?
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  #196  
Old 12 January 2015, 10:20 PM
Zachary Fizz Zachary Fizz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I think that rather goes to prove my point. Isn't one of the EU's values supposed to be that people of all religions are welcome to be part of the EU?
What exactly was your point, again?
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  #197  
Old 12 January 2015, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zachary Fizz View Post
In any case, I have a certain amount of practice at being the "enemy in the hall".
Thank you for the extra context. Nice to see you popping in.

Also, I can't read your present location without mentally adding an extra "-na" to the end. Too much exposure to the muppets as a child.
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  #198  
Old 12 January 2015, 10:56 PM
Zachary Fizz Zachary Fizz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Embra View Post
Thank you for the extra context. Nice to see you popping in.

Also, I can't read your present location without mentally adding an extra "-na" to the end. Too much exposure to the muppets as a child.
Thank you! Nice to drop by.

Actually I might need to update my location again. I'm in Europe right now, and probably won't be getting back to Manama for a while. I'm not quite sure where I'll be next week so will wait and see!
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  #199  
Old 12 January 2015, 10:57 PM
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I had read that the BBC had a new policy not to show any images of Mohammed at all, but apparently they don't:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...-Mohammed.html

Anyway, Newsnight has just shown the new Charlie Hebdo cover:

https://twitter.com/mrnickharvey/sta...420739/photo/1
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  #200  
Old 12 January 2015, 11:05 PM
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Just came by to post that cover, but here's a higher quality image of it.

"All is forgiven." And they were the victims
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