snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > Non-UL Chat > Police Blotter

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #241  
Old 19 April 2013, 08:10 PM
Lainie's Avatar
Lainie Lainie is offline
 
Join Date: 29 August 2005
Location: Suburban Columbus, OH
Posts: 74,479
Default

You quoted me and did not quote Ryda, so you'll forgive me not realizing that the question was directed at Ryda, and not at me.

But I don't think Ryda said anyone was ignorant, either. She said stereotyping is based on ignorance -- do you disagree?
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 19 April 2013, 08:13 PM
Ryda Wong, EBfCo. Ryda Wong, EBfCo. is offline
 
Join Date: 14 December 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 24,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post

What if crescent had said, "That name sounds typical of Chechnya, and the population of Chechnya is predominantly Muslim, so I'm guessing they're Muslim"? Would that have also been "ignorant"? What if he'd summarised his point as "The name sounds Muslim" rather than "The name doesn't sound Muslim"?
The first makes two reasonable assumptions in order to reach a conclusion: a) that certain geographic areas have common names and b) that an area has a predominate religion.
Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 19 April 2013, 08:15 PM
Lainie's Avatar
Lainie Lainie is offline
 
Join Date: 29 August 2005
Location: Suburban Columbus, OH
Posts: 74,479
Default

I talked about "accusation of ignorance" above, but I don't really care for that prhasing. Ignorance in and of itself is neutral, not negative.
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 19 April 2013, 08:19 PM
Lainie's Avatar
Lainie Lainie is offline
 
Join Date: 29 August 2005
Location: Suburban Columbus, OH
Posts: 74,479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Although since there's a pretty strong correlation between the religious beliefs of parents and children, and since there's a lot of grey area between belonging "culturally" to a religion and actively believing its precepts, it still seems a reasonable guess that the children might be Muslim as well.
This is where my having been brought up in a minority religion changes my perspective. There isn't really a gray area where the faith I was brought up in is concerned, or any such thing as being "culturally" Jehovah's Witness.

I realize of course that's the exception, not the rule, but so long as it's affectis to make me more cautious about making assumptions I don't see the harm in being influenced by it as strongly as I am.
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 19 April 2013, 08:31 PM
crescent crescent is offline
 
 
Join Date: 13 August 2008
Location: Right here
Posts: 2,518
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
Ryda said that it was "stereotyping" and that "stereotyping is based in ignorance". I was wondering how she distinguished between "stereotyping based in ignorance" and "a reasonable guess based on knowledge". Is it only because crescent turned out to be wrong?
Exactly - there is such a thing as probability. If someone has a name based on name of the faith or it's prophet, then it is likely that they have an association with that faith. That's not stereotype, that's just what is likely.

That said, others here seem to have lumped Arabic names in with names that have their roots in religion. I don't equate Arabic names much with Islam, except that Arabia is strongly dominated by Islam. Someone from that area is more likely to be Muslim than any other religion - that's not stereotype, that's math. I would not assume that they are Muslim, but I would assume that they are more likely to be Muslim than any other religion.

So, if someone has "Mohammed" or "Islam" somewhere in their name, is it such a stretch to assume that their most likely religious affiliation is Islam?
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 19 April 2013, 08:39 PM
hambubba's Avatar
hambubba hambubba is offline
 
Join Date: 30 June 2000
Location: Gonzales, LA
Posts: 10,715
Default

The Arab and Jewish lines are traditionally thought to be from the same ancestor. It would be reasonable to expect names in the Arabic world to be similar regardless of religion. However, the Muslim influence seems to wipe out any idea of "Arabic" not meaning "Muslim". Even in the non-Muslim population of Arabia, they all have the same type of names. Excepting for those who take the Mohammedian spelling - however, even using that isn't a decider on a person's religion being Muslim.

It's a "Joshua"/"Mohammed" type of thing - common names used regardless of the religion of the name's owner.
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 19 April 2013, 08:50 PM
Lainie's Avatar
Lainie Lainie is offline
 
Join Date: 29 August 2005
Location: Suburban Columbus, OH
Posts: 74,479
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
So, if someone has "Mohammed" or "Islam" somewhere in their name, is it such a stretch to assume that their most likely religious affiliation is Islam?
No.

OTOH, is it unreasonable for me, or anyone else, to question on what basis people are making their assumptions about what names are likely to be Muslim?

I don't think so.
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 19 April 2013, 09:00 PM
Jahungo's Avatar
Jahungo Jahungo is offline
 
Join Date: 23 May 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 5,351
Default

Apparently the older bomber, Tamerlan, has become more religious recently:
Quote:
She said that one of the men, Tamerlan, had only recently started to pray routinely and practice Islam.

“He was not devout practicing, but just recently, maybe two years ago, he started praying five times a day,” she said. “I don’t see anything bad in that.”
(Quote is from the NYT Lede live updates).

I want to be clear that I am not jumping to conclusions. But it is very tempting to suspect that this had something to do with a "radicalization" that lead to this bombing.

(Of course, this is little more than speculation. But I don't think there's anything wrong with speculation, as long as one remains clear and aware that it is nothing more than that. I originally speculated that it might be domestic, right-wing anti-government terrorism, based on the nature of the attack and the fact that it was both tax day and Patriots' day, a Massachusetts holiday celebrating the beginning of the Revolutionary War - speculation that now seems almost certainly wrong).
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 19 April 2013, 09:18 PM
Jahungo's Avatar
Jahungo Jahungo is offline
 
Join Date: 23 May 2007
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 5,351
Default

According to the Boston Globe:
Quote:
Earlier, we posted that the YouTube account of Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the 26-year-old brother killed this morning, contained a playlist labeled "Terrorists", but that the videos had been deleted. We tracked one video to the owner: www.youtube.com We'll post a translation as soon as we can.
Quote:
Translation of the beginning of the terrorist video found in the YouTube playlist of Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the 26-year-old brother killed this morning (the video was made by someone else, not Tsarnaev): "I am Amir Abu Rabbanikaly Dujana. I decided to speak to young Muslims. To those who still have fire in their hearts for Islam and Muslims, because many have lost that fire under the influence of kafir (non-believer) system, under their threat. The threat of murder and captivity." The video was titled "Addressing the militiamen."
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 19 April 2013, 09:37 PM
Nick Theodorakis Nick Theodorakis is offline
 
Join Date: 05 November 2005
Location: Fishers, IN
Posts: 6,657
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Exactly - there is such a thing as probability. If someone has a name based on name of the faith or it's prophet, then it is likely that they have an association with that faith. That's not stereotype, that's just what is likely.

That said, others here seem to have lumped Arabic names in with names that have their roots in religion. I don't equate Arabic names much with Islam, except that Arabia is strongly dominated by Islam. Someone from that area is more likely to be Muslim than any other religion - that's not stereotype, that's math. I would not assume that they are Muslim, but I would assume that they are more likely to be Muslim than any other religion.

So, if someone has "Mohammed" or "Islam" somewhere in their name, is it such a stretch to assume that their most likely religious affiliation is Islam?
But what happened here is that someone assumed (based on the name) that the suspects were likely not Muslim. If they knew most Chechens were Muslim (at least culturally) and could recognize Chechen names, they might have come to the opposite conclusion. So what math comes into play is that since most Muslims do not have Arabic names, so one should not assume because their name doesn't sound like an Arabic Muslim name, that they are probably not Muslim.

Nick
Reply With Quote
  #251  
Old 19 April 2013, 09:50 PM
firefighter_raven's Avatar
firefighter_raven firefighter_raven is offline
 
Join Date: 27 September 2008
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 2,994
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Billion View Post
Me too. I never knew all that much about him apart from that Tamerlane was a Mongol-descended conqueror whose armies killed a whole bunch of people. I'm guessing his name is popular in the area because of the tendency to lionize your region's powerful leaders, like "Alexander The Great" was great because he killed and took over everything he saw.
He also did a lot to beautify his capital in Samarkand in current day Uzbekistan. When he would sack a city, the population would be put to the sword except for the artisans and craftsmen, they would be taken back to work on his capital. He was apparently a patron of the arts there and most of the surviving architecture I've seen photos of is pretty amazing.

There is also a myth relating to his tomb being opened and and a script saying "Who ever opens my tomb, shall unleash an invader more terrible than I." His tomb was opened just prior to the beginning of Operation Barbarossa in 1941 and he was reburied with Islamic ritual just days before the tide turned at Stalingrad.
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 19 April 2013, 10:31 PM
Hero_Mike's Avatar
Hero_Mike Hero_Mike is offline
 
 
Join Date: 06 April 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ & Hamilton, ON
Posts: 7,267
Default

During the days of the Soviet Union, many of the ethnic groups were encouraged or even forced to have "Russified" names - that means names which are easily written in and pronounced in Russian - and not "ethnic" names based upon another language.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 19 April 2013, 10:37 PM
Zachary Fizz Zachary Fizz is offline
 
Join Date: 01 March 2002
Location: Guernsey
Posts: 4,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post


Exactly. Saying a name sounds like the person is Jewish or Christian or Buddhist or Muslim is highly problematic and does rather reek of ignorance at the least.
.
I guess you mean socially problematic, Ryda. In more pragmatic terms, the presence of typically Muslim names is used as an indicator in an algorithm used to help identify Islamist terrorists. I believe it has been remarkably accurate. If you are interested, you can read about it in the book "Superfreakonomics".

In my own direct experience, names have been helpful and reliable indicators of religious affiliation in Ireland, Punjab, Kashmir, Sri Lanka, south east Asia, the Middle East, the Caucasus and Central Asia. Also the names of Iranians' children can suggest certain affiliations.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 19 April 2013, 10:47 PM
Richard W's Avatar
Richard W Richard W is offline
 
Join Date: 19 February 2000
Location: High Wycombe, UK
Posts: 26,289
Default

I know two people from Pakistan, both of whom have (what I believe are) typical Pakistani surnames. One's first names are "Muhammad Ali" and the other's first name is "Denise". Guess their religions...
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 19 April 2013, 11:28 PM
hambubba's Avatar
hambubba hambubba is offline
 
Join Date: 30 June 2000
Location: Gonzales, LA
Posts: 10,715
Default

If they're from Pakistan, I can without a doubt state that their religion is Muslim. To an accuracy of 99.99%. There's room for error, but it's tiny.

Stating that someone from Pakistan would be a Muslim isn't stereotyping if it's generally known that it's a strictly enforced Muslim country.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 19 April 2013, 11:39 PM
Auburn Red's Avatar
Auburn Red Auburn Red is offline
 
Join Date: 13 June 2010
Location: St. Louis area, Missouri
Posts: 2,140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
Being French isn't a creed.


Exactly. Saying a name sounds like the person is Jewish or Christian or Buddhist or Muslim is highly problematic and does rather reek of ignorance at the least.

I actually think you and I mainly agree on this.
You know this is a stressful time for everyone, but I really don't like being called ignorant.
I made that post last night when the only information that we had was the younger brother's name. I made it in a hurry and because I was extremely busy today with back to back appointments and scant time to read or watch the news, I didn't have time to look up any news or information about the case. I only got to go on the computer to post my thoughts this minute after almost 8 hours of being away from a computer. What I meant to say last night, was that the name did sound as though it were from one of the former Soviet countries, which it turns out it was. Chechnya is a former Soviet country. Many people when they convert to Islam adopt an Arabic name such as Yusuf Islam or Muhammad Ali. Not every one does, but based upon the scant information that we were given last night, with just a name, a country, an age and nothing else to go on. I took a giant leap that maybe the guy wasn't Muslim. I can see that I was wrong, at least about his older brother, he certainly was. It sounds like the other was not or at least not as devout as his brother. (But maybe the sudden devoutness could have been part of the motive at least as far as the older brother is concerned). At the time that I went to bed last night, none of the information came about his world view or any others. All of that came later.

At the time no one knew who they were or what their motivations were. As far as we can tell they still don't know, if there was anyone else behind it. It sounds like their family has no idea either. They may have even been acting alone.

So at most I was premature with my guess and the information, but just as I should not have made snap judgements about their name, I would rather people not make snap judgements about my postings. It makes me feel stupid and ignorant, and I would rather not feel like that right now, if you don't mind.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 20 April 2013, 12:00 AM
Simply Madeline's Avatar
Simply Madeline Simply Madeline is offline
 
Join Date: 15 October 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,525
Default

Apparently, the bombers were not the ones who robbed the 7-11 last night. There was just coincidentally a robbery in the vicinity of the firefight.

http://www.wbur.org/2013/04/15/live-...venience-store

ETA: the lockdown has been lifted. http://www.wbur.org/2013/04/15/live-...ess-briefing-3
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 20 April 2013, 12:35 AM
Simply Madeline's Avatar
Simply Madeline Simply Madeline is offline
 
Join Date: 15 October 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,525
Default

WGN news is reporting that the 2nd suspect is "cornered" in Watertown.

ETA: http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...9zK/story.html
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 20 April 2013, 12:44 AM
Lainie's Avatar
Lainie Lainie is offline
 
Join Date: 29 August 2005
Location: Suburban Columbus, OH
Posts: 74,479
Default

Auburn Red, FWIW, I intended no personal criticism of you, and I don't think Ryda intended that, either.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 20 April 2013, 01:14 AM
Richard W's Avatar
Richard W Richard W is offline
 
Join Date: 19 February 2000
Location: High Wycombe, UK
Posts: 26,289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hambubba View Post
If they're from Pakistan, I can without a doubt state that their religion is Muslim. To an accuracy of 99.99%. There's room for error, but it's tiny.
Ali is Muslim and Denise is Christian...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stravinsky arrested in Boston snopes Entertainment 1 25 March 2011 10:48 PM
The Boston Herald Gets Duped snopes Humor 0 15 April 2008 07:18 PM
Boston accents snopes Language 71 18 January 2008 02:41 AM
Mr. Boston snopes Automobiles 5 26 August 2007 04:47 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.