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  #1  
Old 16 January 2019, 01:37 AM
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United Kingdom Theresa May's Brexit deal crushed

Theresa May's Brexit deal crushed as country barrels toward deadline without plan to leave E.U.

Theresa May suffered the biggest parliamentary defeat of any British prime minister in history Tuesday as lawmakers of all stripes crushed her plan to leave the European Union.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/br...t-deal-n958791
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  #2  
Old 16 January 2019, 10:37 AM
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The Problem with the decision of the British Parliament is that they say that they don't want this deal, a majority say that they don't want no deal, but they can't agreee on what deal they actually want.

The frustration in the other EU countries is growing.
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  #3  
Old 16 January 2019, 01:30 PM
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Believe me, the frustration is growing in the UK as well.

It's a major source of tension and anxiety for a huge portion of the British public. Even my 9? 10? year old nephew has said that he's scared about leaving the EU! While it's great for somebody that young to care about political goings-on, it's not great that the stress is so palpable even an uninformed child can feel it.

Even the Remainers like myself are starting to just want it over with, which is an unfortunate attitude to have because just getting it over with could mean being left with no deal.

It's like part of the population chopped off one of the legs of our national conjoined body and now we're all panicking about how we're going to move.
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Old 16 January 2019, 01:51 PM
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It is sad to see that after a couple of years, the British government still doesn't understand that they can't have it all their way, and they can't just pick which parts of the EU they want (free trade yes, immigrants NO.)
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  #5  
Old 17 January 2019, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Enrico View Post
The Problem with the decision of the British Parliament is that they say that they don't want this deal, a majority say that they don't want no deal, but they can't agreee on what deal they actually want.
Yes, it really doesn't make sense. There are still people (in Parliament) arguing that money spent on no-deal preparations is "wasted" because obviously nobody wants no-deal and so it's never going to happen. That has been utter nonsense for ages - for a start, there's a small but influential group that does actively want no-deal, and secondly, it's (now, and was clearly likely to be even before this vote, because everybody could see where the vote as going), it's the flipping default option that is going to happen unless a bunch of people who can't agree on anything at all somehow manage to agree on something that will make it not happen! And even if those things weren't the case, spending time and money on contingency plans is not a waste - it's a sign of mature thought and planning.

I've not seen any such comments since the vote, but that's mostly because I've not been reading the news much - the people saying it before the vote often seemed to be intending to vote against Theresa May's deal too.

And now a lot of the same people who voted against her deal - by the biggest margin that any motion like this has been defeated in living memory, I think - have also voted that they have confidence in her government. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

It means the next step is probably another referendum, rather than a general election, assuming anybody gets their act together enough to agree to organise it. (It appears to be understood that the EU will agree to an extension on the Article 50 deadline for either an election or a referendum, but not just to try to renegotiate a different deal - at least the EU position has consistently been clear throughout... as a Remainer though, it's hollow comfort). That's probably more helpful at this point than a general election, but it doesn't solve the problem within the UK even if there's a "Stay in the EU" option and it wins; and I think it's still quite likely to come down as "Leave" (although it does depend...).

As a Remainer I almost wanted the outcome to be that May's deal was accepted. May's deal would have honoured the referendum result - we'd have left the EU, and that's all the referendum said people wanted. And the "Irish backstop" which meant we'd have to "indefinitely be tied to the EU with no say" was just a way of saying that we actually had to solve the bloody problem before people would agree that we'd solved it. For Leavers to say it meant staying indefinitely was an admission that they had no idea how to solve the problem, and didn't care. Both of the problems that Leavers had with that deal could have been solved by telling them to grow the NFBSK up because they had got what they wanted - they couldn't continue to pretend that the referendum result clearly said something other than that, because all it said was that we should leave the EU, and we would have left the EU - and now they had to face up to solving the problems.

It should be so easy for a competent government, or opposition, or campaign, or whoever it is that's not stepping up and taking responsibility at the moment, to get that point across. But it never even seems to be mentioned.

Having said that, I disagree with Blatherskite that my frustration is growing, but that's only because I've been at maximum frustration with the whole mess for at least a year and my own frustration can't grow any further. Maybe other people's frustration is still growing. Even Leavers must surely be frustrated, because most of this doesn't even split along those lines...
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  #6  
Old 17 January 2019, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
And now a lot of the same people who voted against her deal - by the biggest margin that any motion like this has been defeated in living memory, I think - have also voted that they have confidence in her government. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
In my cynical opinion, many of the members voted that Brexit is going to be a huge mess and they have the greatest confidence that May's government will make an excellent fall guy for it.

Corbyn says that May's must take a hard, no-deal Brexit off the table before there can be discussions on the deal. Which is impossible as no-deal is what is going to happen when time runs out. So basically he is saying that she must broker a deal that is acceptable to both the EU and Parliament before Parliament can discuss a deal. He's so helpful.
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  #7  
Old 17 January 2019, 02:13 AM
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As one of those Yanks from across the pond, I barely understood what Brexit was about, and I understand even less about what these various deals and what they mean. I am only posting in this thread, so I’d have an excuse to share the Andy Serkis-Teresa May video. Now that I’ve done that, I’ll shuffle out of this thread. British Snopesters, please don’t be too caustic when you use your notorious wit to lambaste me.
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  #8  
Old 18 January 2019, 07:21 AM
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Default 'Just stop messing about': Hastings aghast at Brexit impasse

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...brexit-impasse

Quote:
There are few things connected to Brexit on which you can find an easy consensus. But if the people of Hastings are any guide, most will happily agree on one thing: the current impasse has not painted the nation’s politicians in a good light.
Brexit unites the country shock!

Quote:
The most pithily eloquent responses come from a man waiting for his wife outside a shop, who declined to give his name but answered a series of quickfire questions.

Theresa May? “She’ll never win anything again.” Jeremy Corbyn? “He’s an arsehole.” Would there be another referendum? “No.” How was it all going to end? “A mess.”
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  #9  
Old 18 January 2019, 08:02 AM
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I'm just skeptical is all. The thing is, people talk about Brexit all the time, but like everyone has a camera on their cell phones and, isn't it a bit weird that no one has ever photographed one?
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  #10  
Old 20 January 2019, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
As one of those Yanks from across the pond, I barely understood what Brexit was about, and I understand even less about what these various deals and what they mean.
You're not exactly alone in that. Half the commentary in the UK is still to do with "what Brexit was about". The general agreement is that it's not really got a lot to do with the EU, or at least, that's certainly not the most important factor in it. I've found that some of the clearest commentary has come from Irish writers - Fintan O'Toole is good (here are a couple - It was never about Europe. Brexit is Britain’s reckoning with itself and The paranoid fantasy behind Brexit); I think Dara's brother Seamus has written a bit about it too. (Although his piece that I remember reading was from before the referendum and specific to Irish border issues - which despite what some say, were apparent back then as well, to those paying attention).

Those are both quite long. The guy below has a Twitter thread summary of how we ended up in this situation that seems to hit all the bullet points, but it might need some annotation if you don't already know what he's referring to:

This Brexit business is a marvel. Genuinely. It’s borderline miraculous. Bear with me.

Specifically - Tweet 5; that's Cameron calling the EU referendum in the first place, because he thought it would sort out internal divisions in the Conservative party over the EU and - although this is hard to believe now - remove the issue that was causing problems for his party. Tweet 6 - the referendum itself. Tweet 9 - May calling the 2017 general election. (He's missed that, immediately before this, she invoked Article 50 to start the countdown to the UK leaving the EU, thus setting the unmeetable deadline that he mentions later).

I actually came to post a different article, though:

Its compass smashed, the ghost ship Brexit sails into ever darker waters (by Andrew Rawnsley)

I've not finished reading it, but this paragraph is basically what I was saying above when I said that (even) as a Remainer I thought that the best outcome would be May's deal being accepted:

Quote:
When news reached the crowds in Parliament Square, the humiliation of the prime minister was cheered both by the gang from Leave Means Leave and by the throng who had come to clamour for a people’s vote. Both those who want to reverse Brexit and those who yearn for the starkest of Brexits think that Mrs May’s defeat paves the way to ultimate victory for their cause. Both cannot be correct. One or other will eventually look back at that night as a terrible mistake.
To me, it still seems likely that it's the people who want to reverse Brexit who will come to regret this. (And this tends to include me; it's not going to solve the problems that a lot of Leavers wanted addressed, but it's going to leave us in a much better position to try to do so).
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  #11  
Old 20 January 2019, 06:27 PM
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E. Q. Taft E. Q. Taft is offline
 
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I think the US and the UK should make a deal: The UK can build a wall, and the US will leave the EU. Problems solved.
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  #12  
Old 20 January 2019, 06:34 PM
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Like a restoration of Hadrian's wall, using authentic Roman-era construction techniques and materials, as a way to bring history to life? I could dig that...
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  #13  
Old 20 January 2019, 08:23 PM
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And Trump can pay for it, and then it will be Trump's Wall! I'll let him put his name on it and everything!

(citizens of the UK, who would actually have to look at it, might have a different opinion about that -- )
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  #14  
Old 20 January 2019, 08:59 PM
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ganzfeld ganzfeld is offline
 
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That's the best idea so far. Only, given how the UK is only connected to France at that one point, they should just build a water way between, a huge channel. The only place to get in would be by boat. Make it just wide enough that it would be hard to swim over. Maybe just leave a tunnel for cars and trains entering properly. Could call it a "chunnel" (cause channel and tunnel, get it?).
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  #15  
Old 21 January 2019, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
A poll by ICM conducted after last week’s government defeat and seen by the Guardian asked voters what should happen next.

The most popular option, backed by 28% of voters, was a no-deal Brexit. Demonstrating the divide in public opinion, the next most popular option, supported by 24% of the public, is to start the process of holding a second referendum.

In the representative online poll of 2,046 adults between 16–18 January, just 8% thought May should press ahead with trying to win support for her deal in parliament, while 11% thought she should call a general election.

The Guardian
You see the problem?

I can't find the quote now, but over the weekend, UK trade secretary Fox said something to the effect that you can't rule out a no-deal-Brexit because that would mean giving away the last trump card in the negotiations with the EU.

When a minister for trade still considers a no-deal-scenario as something that allows the UK to put pressure on the EU, you know you are in trouble. A no-deal brexit would hurt the EU, yes, but it would hurt the UK much much harder.
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  #16  
Old 21 January 2019, 11:09 PM
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It's not just that you can't rule it [a no-deal Brexit] out, it's that despite the talk of how it's never going to happen because obviously nobody wants it, a lot of people in the UK do want it.

You can argue about how many of those people genuinely want it (because they think they'll benefit from the chaos - and are probably right) against those who only want it to "stick it to the man" regardless of what happens, and those who want it because they've still no idea what's going on; but it doesn't make a lot of difference at this stage. There are people in each of those groups, and probably others arguing for no-deal for what they no doubt see as better reasons. The people in the first of those groups - the ones who understand the consequences and will benefit from them - are a small minority, and their views and interests are (often diametrically) opposed to most other Brexit voters, but they're also surprisingly influential, and at the moment it still seems to me as though they're the most likely group to get what they want. Which they've still somehow managed to convince a lot of other people is also what those other people want, when it really really isn't. But by saying this, which seems obvious to me, I'm apparently some sort of elitist who hasn't listened to anybody.

Meanwhile MPs are petitioning Theresa May to formally rule out a no-deal Brexit, which is clearly absolutely bloody pointless because she can't, at this stage, do that - nobody in the UK can, because it's not solely up to us! If we want an extension on the deadline, the rest of the EU also has to agree to it! The people who should be in charge are still clearly in a strong state of denial as to what's going on.

It's all a bit worrying, especially if you believe some of the arch-Brexiteers about how "Britain" (at this point, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but they don't seem to understand that) has for centuries led the world. I hope we're not leading the world at the moment. Luckily when I type it out, the claim is pretty dubious anyway.
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