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  #81  
Old 02 May 2013, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom o' Bedlam View Post
Also, a nitpick: the word is "tenets", not "tenants."
That's one interpretation, but it isn't cannon.
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  #82  
Old 02 May 2013, 07:13 PM
Tom o' Bedlam Tom o' Bedlam is offline
 
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*twitch*

Must... maintain... composure...
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  #83  
Old 02 May 2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom o' Bedlam View Post
ETA:
But they do recognize Jesus as an important prophet and (I think) believe in the Virgin Birth. I believe the former is true of Judaism, but not sure about the latter (I'm more than willing to be set straight on these points).
Opinions vary (three Jews, four opinions, goes the saying.) Some Jews don't believe there was even any such person. Others think there was a historic person called Jesus (sometimes referred to by Jews as Jesus of Nazareth) who said at least some of the things quoted in the gospels; some would consider that person a prophet, others just another rabbi. With the exception of one group I know of which is considered to be Christian by most Jews but which calls itself Jewish, Jews in general do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah / Christ, let alone that he was divine and/or fathered directly by God with no human male involved.
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  #84  
Old 02 May 2013, 07:33 PM
Tom o' Bedlam Tom o' Bedlam is offline
 
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Pretty much as I thought, then (though I suppose to say Judaism considers him a prophet would be overstating things). Thanks!
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  #85  
Old 02 May 2013, 07:50 PM
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Yes, it certainly isn't part of the central canon; which I think it is in Islam (though I'm quite willing to be corrected there.)
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  #86  
Old 02 May 2013, 07:58 PM
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In most of my readings Islam considers Jesus to be the Messiah (but not the actual Son of God).
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  #87  
Old 03 May 2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
Well, as long as they don't hurt anybody, why not respect them?
Why respect something that you find silly or even repulsive? Just because the belief is about a god (or gods) doesn't automatically make it more worthy of respect than other ideas or beliefs. If I believed that mermaids rode unicorns and helped Santa deliver the presents, nobody over the age of 10 would respect that. But, as you're suggesting, if I said my God was a mermaid that rode a unicorn, you would suddenly give it respect, simply because it was a "religious belief"?
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  #88  
Old 03 May 2013, 01:44 PM
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But really, do you have the monopoly on what's silly or not? And nobody has talked mermaids or unicorns. Let's put it this way: Don't you want people to respect your beliefs? So why can't you do the same for others?
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  #89  
Old 03 May 2013, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by damian View Post
Why respect something that you find silly or even repulsive?
Plenty of people find some other people's sexual behavior to be silly or even repulsive. There are even people who find all sexual behavior to be silly or even repulsive. Sex, nevertheless, is something that people do (even though some individuals don't); and something that is very important to most humans. That's what needs to be acknowledged and respected.

Religion is also something that humans do, and that is very important to many of them. There are humans who don't do it, and some who don't have in their heads whatever it is that causes other humans to go in for it (just as I don't have in my head whatever it is about humans and ball games; but there is definitely something about humans and ball games). But it needs to be recognized that this is a major thing that humans do. Dismissing the whole thing as silly and repulsive isn't, IMO, useful. It doesn't help to explain why humans go in for religion; and it doesn't cause people to stop believing in religion. It just ticks them off.
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  #90  
Old 03 May 2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
Let's put it this way: Don't you want people to respect your beliefs?
Well, again, speaking for myself, no. Even when I was an ardent monotheist or animist or Atheist I didn't expect or want or in any way care whether someone else respected my beliefs. I find it hard to understand why anyone does. That said, I do understand that even the Golden Rule isn't perfect in this sense. I don't assume that just because I don't care means others also don't and that therefore it's OK to make fun of them.
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  #91  
Old 03 May 2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
Let's put it this way: Don't you want people to respect your beliefs? So why can't you do the same for others?
Not addressed to me, but I'll answer anyway...

I really don't care whether or not anyone respects my beliefs, but at the same time, I have no beliefs to respect or not. The only thing that I believe in any sense of the word is that my perception of reality is not somehow illusory, and that only because you have to start somewhere.

Put another way, believing in something without evidence is not the same as not believing in something without evidence.
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  #92  
Old 03 May 2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
But really, do you have the monopoly on what's silly or not? And nobody has talked mermaids or unicorns. Let's put it this way: Don't you want people to respect your beliefs? So why can't you do the same for others?
Put another way, I don't have to respect the beliefs of others but I do have to behave like an adult and not like a petulant child when I am around people whose beliefs differ from mine.

That means even if I do find religion as silly as Damian appears to I don't voice that belief in situations where it is clearly inappropriate. I suspect that this is something that all but the most fanatical already do though. People who cross that line are the ones who don't deserve respect - whether that's someone preaching their religion or someone preaching their lack of religion.
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  #93  
Old 03 May 2013, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chillas View Post
I really don't care whether or not anyone respects my beliefs, but at the same time, I have no beliefs to respect or not. The only thing that I believe in any sense of the word is that my perception of reality is not somehow illusory, and that only because you have to start somewhere.
This reminds me of the thread where we joked about people who say "I have no accent or dialect!" (Not that I disagree with you but I'm really weird. I don't believe there are such things as beliefs - at least none with much of any relation to things that we call "beliefs". This lack of belief has been roundly criticized on this board. Which I think is a good thing.)
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  #94  
Old 03 May 2013, 10:52 PM
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"I believe there is no God" is a belief. The fact that it can be worded as "I don't believe in God" doesn't change that. Nor does it change the meaning if you say "I know there is no God".
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  #95  
Old 03 May 2013, 11:11 PM
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Alright but only if you allow that everyone believes nearly all the virtually infinite permutations of "I don't believe _____."
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  #96  
Old 04 May 2013, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
But really, do you have the monopoly on what's silly or not?
I am 100% in charge of what I think and believe. If I think something's silly, then it is. That's how opinions work.

Quote:
And nobody has talked mermaids or unicorns.
I was trying to come up with an equally absurd thing to believe in. That's the best I can do. But if that was my religious belief, you'd automatically respect it, simply because it is a "religious" belief.

Quote:
Let's put it this way: Don't you want people to respect your beliefs? So why can't you do the same for others?
I'm not sure I have ever expressed a desire on these boards for amyone to respect my beliefs. I respect them. That's good enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
That means even if I do find religion as silly as Damian appears to I don't voice that belief in situations where it is clearly inappropriate.
I don't confront strangers in the street and say "You will burn in Hell if you don't agree with what I believe. I rarely start a conversation about religion. But my thoughts are equally worthy of voicing as anyone else. Why should I sit quietly and listen to people blather on about their God without voicing my opinion? You seem to be saying that I should respect their beliefs but not voice my own.

And what does "respect" mean in this context? Is it disrespectful to say I don't believe the same things you do, or that your(g) religious beliefs make me laugh at how absurd they are? Why don't my opinions deserve respect?
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  #97  
Old 05 May 2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
If I think something's silly, then it is. That's how opinions work.
Not precisely. If you think that something's silly, then in your opinion it is silly. There's a difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
And what does "respect" mean in this context? Is it disrespectful to say I don't believe the same things you do,
No.*


Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
Is it disrespectful to say [ . . .] that your(g) religious beliefs make me laugh at how absurd they are?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damian View Post
Why don't my opinions deserve respect?
They do. Rudeness, however, does not deserve respect (though returning rudeness back to it often only makes the situation worse, and almost always makes the person you're communicating with less likely to listen to you, and may for those reasons be unwise).



* not in a context like this one, anyway. Jumping up in the middle of your friend's wedding to complain that you disagree with statements made in the course of the service would, for instance, be disrespectful -- though if I understand you correctly you're not doing that sort of thing.
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  #98  
Old 05 May 2013, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Jumping up in the middle of your friend's wedding to complain that you disagree with statements made in the course of the service would, for instance, be disrespectful [...]
Well, yeah; You have to wait for the part where they say "speak now or forever..." Then you can shout "Mermaids and unicorns are not for real!"
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  #99  
Old 06 May 2013, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
"Mermaids and unicorns are not for real!"
Can you prove they're not real?

(I laugh every time I encounter that "argument".)
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  #100  
Old 06 May 2013, 11:05 AM
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Why would I ever want to? As a recovering skeptic, I need to argue about what actually exists like I need a hole in my Bigfoot suit. I'll always be a skeptic but, like I've been told about alcohol and alcoholics, take skepticism away from a skeptic and you're left with an ---hole. Speaking for myself only.
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