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  #41  
Old 24 April 2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Glad it's been found. My French is pretty bad, but the story sounds like it's still intact.
Didn't you get a translate prompt?

Anyway, I'm glad the items have been found and apparently unharmed/non-desecrated.
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  #42  
Old 24 April 2018, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Kermor View Post
Thank God, it's been found!
I did my best to read the article (good practice for my French). Do I understand correctly that the coins were also found intact?

Seaboe
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  #43  
Old 24 April 2018, 05:08 PM
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I've unintentionally been absent from this thread for a while. Time to catch up on the philosophical debate.

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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
No, that is not comparable to what I'm saying. For starters, I never said an exact copy of your moon rock would make your moon rock less real. It just means there are more of them with equal value. Other people can touch one too and, perhaps, experience the same thrill you did.
Are you saying that an exact copy, even if created on Earth, would bring the same thrill? I disagree.

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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Here we have to be clear about the difference between market value and aesthetic or artistic or cultural (etc) value. The fact that there is only one copy of a certain Wu Tang album increases its market value, not necessarily the others!
Which was part of my point about why an original painting has value when a copy does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
We already have petabits of digital art where a copy is exactly the same as the 'original'.
Which, of course, is the epitome of Benjamin's "mechanically reproduced" art, freed from the curse of only-one-original. But I can still attach an "aura" to my copy of a digital work.

I will bow out of the more esoteric aspects of originality in digital art, as I believe others have adequately explored that area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
I'm momentarily tempted to start the Star Trek transporter debate....
I've been tempted to as well - but actually, I think ganzfeld beat us to it, except in the Trek case the "original" is destroyed.

How about if we consider a transporter mishap that creates two people/works of art/whatever at the receiving end? There's no way of knowing which is the original, if either.

We hear stories of people who catch record-setting baseballs having to give them back, because the IRS* says keeping it would be taxable income equal to the market value. I often wondered what would happen if I caught that ball, threw it into a box with 100 identical balls, and only took one out to keep.

*The tax man here in the US, if you didn't know.
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  #44  
Old 24 April 2018, 05:48 PM
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What is the science fiction book where transporters are just duplicators and they exterminate the original, calling it 'balancing the equation'.
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  #45  
Old 24 April 2018, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
What is the science fiction book where transporters are just duplicators and they exterminate the original, calling it 'balancing the equation'.
I had an idea that was waaay off, so I did a quick Google and found an episode of the Outer Limits based on a short story of the same name.
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  #46  
Old 24 April 2018, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnStorm View Post
Didn't you get a translate prompt?
Thought I answered this, but maybe not. No, I didn't [ETA: or, if I did, I didn't see it]. But, like Seaboe, I decided to practice my French.
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  #47  
Old 24 April 2018, 06:12 PM
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That is it, I was thinking the aliens were lizards, but close enough. Thanks!
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  #48  
Old 25 April 2018, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
Are you saying that an exact copy, even if created on Earth, would bring the same thrill? I disagree.
No. I'm saying a thrill may be from what amounts to nothing but superstition. We value objects for where they've been and who has touched them rather than for what they actually are. That's superstitious to me. (Which I don't see as a bad thing - just a human thing.)
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Which was part of my point about why an original painting has value when a copy does not.
Huh? Again, I think you're confusing market value with value. I never argued that it would have the same market value.
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Which, of course, is the epitome of Benjamin's "mechanically reproduced" art, freed from the curse of only-one-original.
No, that is not his epitome but just the starting point of his argument. Unless one accepts that the rest must logically follow, no. Many others have included the fact that things may be exactly reproduced in arbitrary numbers to talk about many other issues, unrelated to his specific spiel, as it were. (And no one who reads him and what I'm saying here would confuse these arguments.)
Quote:
But I can still attach an "aura" to my copy of a digital work.
You can attach an aura to anything you want. But auras only exist as a matter of superstition. That's not to say they don't exist at all. Perhaps they actually exist. Perhaps your moon stone has some special homeopathic property just from having actually been on the Moon. I've touched the same one so I'd like to think so but I don't see any compelling reason to believe it other than it's fun. (Which is not a bad reason at all...)
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  #49  
Old 25 April 2018, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
No. I'm saying a thrill may be from what amounts to nothing but superstition. We value objects for where they've been and who has touched them rather than for what they actually are. That's superstitious to me.
It's not superstitious to value the Rosetta Stone because it helped decipher hieroglyphics. To value the artifacts from the Debra L. Friedman site because they predate the Clovis people and prove that there were people in the Americas pre-Clovis.
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  #50  
Old 25 April 2018, 10:53 AM
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I agree. Neither does either follow from what I've said here.
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  #51  
Old 25 April 2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crius of CoH View Post
I had an idea that was waaay off, so I did a quick Google and found an episode of the Outer Limits based on a short story of the same name.
I always think of the Canadian animated short "To Be" when this topic comes up: https://www.nfb.ca/film/to_be/
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  #52  
Old 25 April 2018, 01:29 PM
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ganz, I believe I'm being misunderstood (not the first time in my life). I mostly agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
No. I'm saying a thrill may be from what amounts to nothing but superstition. We value objects for where they've been and who has touched them rather than for what they actually are. That's superstitious to me. (Which I don't see as a bad thing - just a human thing.)
Agreed here. It's the knowledge - or belief - that this is a piece of the Moon that creates the superstitious value. For all I know that "Moon rock" was just a piece of tile they bought at Home Depot (or, give the timeframe, Rickel). If there were a real lunar example and a high-quality simulation, the thrill would be depend on what I believed about what I touched, not the "truth".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Huh? Again, I think you're confusing market value with value. I never argued that it would have the same market value.
Here I was just saying I understand the difference, and that the one-copy album's price is high in part because it's unique, just like an original painting's price is high in part because it's unique in a different way. My original point is that the market value of a painting is predicated much more on the belief in its originality than on the aesthetics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
No, that is not his epitome but just the starting point of his argument. Unless one accepts that the rest must logically follow, no. Many others have included the fact that things may be exactly reproduced in arbitrary numbers to talk about many other issues, unrelated to his specific spiel, as it were. (And no one who reads him and what I'm saying here would confuse these arguments.)
I was only saying that I believe Benjamin would consider digital art a more perfect example of art in the modern (publicly consumed) context, where the aura of originality is irrelevant and only the aesthetic, cultural, political, etc. aspects matter. I wasn't saying you agree with his "specific spiel" any more than I do, and my original statement that you were sounding like him was only meant as a joke. (Gotta use those smilies more!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
You can attach an aura to anything you want. But auras only exist as a matter of superstition. That's not to say they don't exist at all. Perhaps they actually exist. Perhaps your moon stone has some special homeopathic property just from having actually been on the Moon. I've touched the same one so I'd like to think so but I don't see any compelling reason to believe it other than it's fun. (Which is not a bad reason at all...)
100% agreed here.
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