snopes.com  

Go Back   snopes.com > SLC Central > Social Studies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 15 December 2018, 12:47 PM
Hans Off's Avatar
Hans Off Hans Off is offline
 
Join Date: 14 May 2004
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 4,650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Wow. That is a lot.

No wonder it doesn't accumulate from year to year. It doesn't need to. Somebody who's too sick to work for more of the year than that really can't do the job. [/URL]:
It is pretty high, and above statutory, but even with that in the contract, the system was abused, not by employees overclaiming sick leave, but by managers refusing to sign off employees using sick leave for various reasons, often petty.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 15 December 2018, 05:46 PM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust thorny locust is offline
 
Join Date: 27 April 2007
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 9,810
Default

But do you see my point that people getting only one to two weeks a year might want to be able to bank some of it from a year in which they're healthy, in case they need more than one or two weeks in a later year?
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 15 December 2018, 06:43 PM
Hans Off's Avatar
Hans Off Hans Off is offline
 
Join Date: 14 May 2004
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 4,650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
But do you see my point that people getting only one to two weeks a year might want to be able to bank some of it from a year in which they're healthy, in case they need more than one or two weeks in a later year?
Well yes, I understand the system you have (now) and I understand why people would want to carry over the entitlement.

It’s just a totally different concept to ours.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 16 December 2018, 05:22 AM
Mouse's Avatar
Mouse Mouse is offline
 
Join Date: 11 July 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,557
Mouse

I remember read one of those Inspirational Stories that really aren’t where they talked about a teacher with cancer whose fellow teachers stepped in and donated some of their sick days after he had used up all of his. Like so many “Inspirational” articles, it was framed as a heartwarming human interest story. Meanwhile I was going “Okay, it was pretty cool for the guy’s colleagues to step up and help him out, but shouldn’t we talk about serious economic inequalities inherent in all this? Like maybe we should rethink our priorities as a society so a man with cancer only has to worry about getting well, and he isn’t in a position where he has to hope that his colleagues can spare some of their meager benefits.”

Yeah, I really suck at these articles. The fact that people stepped up to help out someone in trouble, isn’t an astonishing thing. People, even poor people, are inherently wired to want to take care of each other. If a massive sinkhole opened up and started swallowing someone whole, it’s not too unfathomable that people would step up and do what they can to get the poor guy out, and that is a good thing. But if we’re in a disaster on a massive scale where nearly everybody is up to their necks in a sinkhole, then hoping some guy throws someone a rope to pull someone out, is a bandaid on a massive hemorrhaging wound. It is better than nothing, but we need to do something on a larger scale to help out those who aren’t lucky enough to have a friend with a rope to spare, and maybe figuring out the cause of the problem so that the poor schmoe pulled from a sinkhole doesn’t immediately have another run of bad luck that leaves him in another sinkhole.

Or to borrow from Martin Luther King Jr., while we should be the Good Samaritan and help out those beaten and left for dead on the road to Damascus, at some point we need to take an overall look at things so that we lessen the amount of men beaten and left for dead on the road to Damascus. King said it better than I did, but I believe I’ve exhaustively laid out my point.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 16 December 2018, 05:38 AM
Mouse's Avatar
Mouse Mouse is offline
 
Join Date: 11 July 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,557
Mouse

I remember read one of those Inspirational Stories that really aren’t where they talked about a teacher with cancer whose fellow teachers stepped in and donated some of their sick days after he had used up all of his. Like so many “Inspirational” articles, it was framed as a heartwarming human interest story. Meanwhile I was going “Okay, it was pretty cool for the guy’s colleagues to step up and help him out, but shouldn’t we talk about serious economic inequalities inherent in all this? Like maybe we should rethink our priorities as a society so a man with cancer only has to worry about getting well, and he isn’t in a position where he has to hope that his colleagues can spare some of their meager benefits.”

Yeah, I really suck at these articles. The fact that people stepped up to help out someone in trouble, isn’t an astonishing thing. People, even poor people, are inherently wired to want to take care of each other. If a massive sinkhole opened up and started swallowing someone whole, it’s not too unfathomable that people would step up and do what they can to get the poor guy out, and that is a good thing. But if we’re in a disaster on a massive scale where nearly everybody is up to their necks in a sinkhole, then hoping some guy throws someone a rope to pull someone out, is a bandaid on a massive hemorrhaging wound. It is better than nothing, but we need to do something on a larger scale to help out those who aren’t lucky enough to have a friend with a rope to spare, and maybe figuring out the cause of the problem so that the poor schmoe pulled from a sinkhole doesn’t immediately have another run of bad luck that leaves him in another sinkhole.

Or to borrow from Martin Luther King Jr., while we should be the Good Samaritan and help out those beaten and left for dead on the road to Damascus, at some point we need to take an overall look at things so that we lessen the amount of men beaten and left for dead on the road to Damascus. King said it better than I did, but I believe I’ve exhaustively laid out my point.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 16 December 2018, 06:08 AM
crocoduck_hunter's Avatar
crocoduck_hunter crocoduck_hunter is offline
 
Join Date: 27 May 2009
Location: Roseburg, OR
Posts: 13,070
Default

Yeah, and it's a problem with a solution that isn't hard or overly expensive to implement, either.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 16 December 2018, 06:17 AM
ASL's Avatar
ASL ASL is offline
 
Join Date: 04 July 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 5,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
I remember read one of those Inspirational Stories that really aren’t where they talked about a teacher with cancer whose fellow teachers stepped in and donated some of their sick days after he had used up all of his.
It’s an okay article, but the solution offered is patently unworkable:
Quote:
We're trying to fix a rotting infrastructure by slapping a fresh coat of cheery paint on it, which is only effective until the house collapses on us.
I’m sorry, no. That’s not how it works; a coat of paint won’t keep the house together. As any good Navy man will tell you, it should be "once for dust, twice for rust, and three coats to hold it all together." Three!
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 16 December 2018, 02:37 PM
thorny locust's Avatar
thorny locust thorny locust is offline
 
Join Date: 27 April 2007
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 9,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
I remember read one of those Inspirational Stories that really aren’t [/URL] where they talked about a teacher with cancer whose fellow teachers stepped in and donated some of their sick days after he had used up all of his. Like so many “Inspirational” articles, it was framed as a heartwarming human interest story. Meanwhile I was going “Okay, it was pretty cool for the guy’s colleagues to step up and help him out, but shouldn’t we talk about serious economic inequalities inherent in all this?
Many of those stories come across to me as an attempt to argue that we don't need societal solutions, because Individuals Of Good Will will step up to deal with problems.

Color me unconvinced. Sometimes there aren't enough Individuals Of Good Will. Sometimes their Good Will is limited to those they find likeable. Sometimes, with the best will in the world, their resources aren't up to it.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 16 December 2018, 04:03 PM
smittykins's Avatar
smittykins smittykins is offline
 
Join Date: 27 December 2003
Location: Seneca Falls, NY
Posts: 2,728
Default

I seem to recall a story about a man who worked in an auto plant for 50-plus years and never took a sick day or vacation day, and was hailed for his work ethic. Upon retirement, he was given a brand new truck.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 16 December 2018, 06:50 PM
crocoduck_hunter's Avatar
crocoduck_hunter crocoduck_hunter is offline
 
Join Date: 27 May 2009
Location: Roseburg, OR
Posts: 13,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Many of those stories come across to me as an attempt to argue that we don't need societal solutions, because Individuals Of Good Will will step up to deal with problems.

Color me unconvinced. Sometimes there aren't enough Individuals Of Good Will. Sometimes their Good Will is limited to those they find likeable. Sometimes, with the best will in the world, their resources aren't up to it.
The entire reason that societal solutions like Social Security, Medicare, and similar programs exist is because people lived through times when things were bad enough that Individuals of Good Will were no where close to adequate and decided to put a system in place so people wouldn't be forced to rely on the fickle whims of charity.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 16 December 2018, 08:59 PM
Richard W's Avatar
Richard W Richard W is offline
 
Join Date: 19 February 2000
Location: High Wycombe, UK
Posts: 26,408
Icon24

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLegends101 View Post
Yes, that is the primary intent of sick leave. What I think happened is that many people were found to abusing sick leave, that is, claiming sick leave for one or two day absences from work instead of using annual leave and by being able to have unused sick leave credited to service time, there were be far less incentive to abuse sick leave.
But another thing about the USA system that's alien to us in the UK (and Europe) is the stupidly small amounts of annual leave you tend to get. Ten days is typical, I believe? In the UK it's generally twice that - twenty days - and it tends to accumulate upwards with time. My current job, that I've just started, gave 25 days annual leave as a basic benefit. (That's good even here, as a starting number of days - often you'd start with fewer and gain more over time). This is in addition to public holidays - we have six days of fixed bank / public holiday, which is (I believe) lower than in the USA or some European countries, so that makes a difference too.

If you've got enough leave in the first place, you don't need to pretend to be ill in order to take a day off here and there. In companies that I've worked in, people tend to have the opposite problem - it's the days of untaken leave that accumulate, rather than what you call "sick days". There are policies about not carrying over too much leave here, as well.

But, as Hans says, the idea of sick days, and sick pay, is that you can take them when you're genuinely ill. There's a degree of proof involved, but it's supposed to protect you when you can't work for one reason or another.

It relies on employees not taking the piss, you're right, but most people don't - and if you're genuinely unable to come into work and need to take sick days for mental health reasons, those are proper sick days, to me, too. (I've very rarely taken a sick day on those grounds - maybe one or two in my career. In the past I've even, a couple of times in one particular job that I remember, taken hangovers as holiday later, after phoning in sick at the time, and the reasons for the hangovers were as close to mental health breaks as makes no difference, yet I didn't take them as sick days).

If you don't have enough holiday in the first place to be able to have days off when you need them, then that's also a bit alien to us in the UK. But good news - after Brexit we'll be able to understand much better what you mean by this stuff too. Hooray for international understanding!
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 17 December 2018, 01:59 AM
Mouse's Avatar
Mouse Mouse is offline
 
Join Date: 11 July 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,557
Mouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
The entire reason that societal solutions like Social Security, Medicare, and similar programs exist is because people lived through times when things were bad enough that Individuals of Good Will were no where close to adequate and decided to put a system in place so people wouldn't be forced to rely on the fickle whims of charity.
Poor people tend to be surrounded by poor communities. But I’m sure all that money we’ve given to the rich will trickledown any day and there’s no reason to force them to actually contribute to the society they take so much from.

Another Martin Luther King, Jr. quote: we too often have socialism for the rich and rugged, free market capitalism for the poor.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 17 December 2018, 02:16 AM
UrbanLegends101 UrbanLegends101 is offline
 
Join Date: 24 November 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,378
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post

If you've got enough leave in the first place, you don't need to pretend to be ill in order to take a day off here and there. In companies that I've worked in, people tend to have the opposite problem - it's the days of untaken leave that accumulate, rather than what you call "sick days". There are policies about not carrying over too much leave here, as well.

Keep in mind, at least on the US Federal government civilian employee side, we have two types of leave to be discussed here - annual leave and sick leave. There are a few other types which broaden this, but isn't of any concern to this specific discussion.

Annual leave is generally earned at the rate of four hours per two week pay period from the start of employment to the three year point, then AL is six hours per pay period until the 15 year point, then eight hours per pay period.

Annual leave carrryover is usually capped at 240 hours, that is any AL on the book over 240 hours is lost at the beginning of the new leave year.

Sick leave is four hours per pay period with no carryover cap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
But, as Hans says, the idea of sick days, and sick pay, is that you can take them when you're genuinely ill. There's a degree of proof involved, but it's supposed to protect you when you can't work for one reason or another.
Understood and that is the concept within the Federal government. Generally, supervisors aren't going to ask for a lot of documentation for one or two days use of SL, especially if the supervisor can tell the employee has a cold or similar URI issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
It relies on employees not taking the piss, you're right, but most people don't - and if you're genuinely unable to come into work and need to take sick days for mental health reasons, those are proper sick days, to me, too. (I've very rarely taken a sick day on those grounds - maybe one or two in my career. In the past I've even, a couple of times in one particular job that I remember, taken hangovers as holiday later, after phoning in sick at the time, and the reasons for the hangovers were as close to mental health breaks as makes no difference, yet I didn't take them as sick days).

!
Generally the reason for SL documentation was to prevent abuse of the leave policy.

I can't discuss leave policies in the private sector, as it tends to vary widely.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 17 December 2018, 08:32 PM
Dr. Winston O'Boogie's Avatar
Dr. Winston O'Boogie Dr. Winston O'Boogie is offline
 
Join Date: 23 February 2000
Location: Fox Lake, IL
Posts: 5,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
Another Martin Luther King, Jr. quote: we too often have socialism for the rich and rugged, free market capitalism for the poor.
I love this! It is so very very descriptive of American Economics.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 18 December 2018, 03:27 AM
Mouse's Avatar
Mouse Mouse is offline
 
Join Date: 11 July 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,557
Mouse

Maybe we should rethink the metaphor used to illustrate trickledown economics. Rather than the wine glass, maybe the rich are like piñatas; they’ll give you all kinds of treats, but you have to whack them with a stick until they make with the treats.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 20 December 2018, 02:20 AM
Blatherskite's Avatar
Blatherskite Blatherskite is offline
 
Join Date: 06 February 2006
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 4,061
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
[...]the rich are like piñatas; they’ll give you all kinds of treats, but you have to whack them with a stick until they make with the treats
And that is the history of how unions were first established.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dozens stuck for 4 hours in SeaWorld San Diego ride after power failure snopes Crash and Burn 1 11 July 2014 12:33 PM
Economists-An astonishing record – of complete failure Steve Soapbox Derby 21 05 June 2014 06:07 AM
Airline passenger boasting 'Prepare to Die' on his chest is asked to change A Turtle Named Mack Social Studies 37 27 January 2013 05:58 PM
Panadol causes kidney failure snopes Inboxer Rebellion 7 05 November 2007 09:26 AM
Boeing 777 Engine Failure at Takeoff? JoeBentley Fauxtography 20 29 January 2007 04:55 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.