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  #1  
Old 30 January 2016, 05:14 PM
omegazord omegazord is offline
 
 
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Default 'Hundreds' of masked men beat refugee children in Stockholm

'Hundreds' of masked men beat refugee children in Stockholm

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Hundreds of masked men marched through Stockholm's main train station on Friday evening, reportedly beating up refugees and anyone who didn't appear to be ethnically Swedish.

Wearing all-black balaclavas and armbands, the men "gathered with the purpose of attacking refugee children," Stockholm police spokesperson Towe Hagg said.

"I saw maybe three people who were beaten. That was no football brawl or something similar. They targeted migrants. I was quite scared and ran away," an eyewitness told the Aftonbladet newspaper.
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  #2  
Old 31 January 2016, 03:22 AM
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I have a sneaking suspicion certain snopesters will be conveniently silent in this thread, as it might create some very uncomfortable shades of grey.

Enjoy the white supremacy in the comments!
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  #3  
Old 31 January 2016, 04:11 AM
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Rebochan, perhaps it's because America's debate culture has over-emphaszed the importance of disagreement in furthering discussion? No one wants to talk about something that no one is going to disagree with them on.

Take your comments, for example: you didn't say "this is horrible, we should beyond this and I hope the Swedish government pursues this aggresively" and leave it at that, you took it as an opprotunity to pre-emptively invoke 'the other' and invite disagreement, thereby leading to discussion. Mission accomplished!
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Old 31 January 2016, 04:13 AM
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Throw Tomato

You didn't read the last thread on refugees I take it.
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  #5  
Old 31 January 2016, 04:21 AM
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Actually, I did. I read many threads that I elect not to comment in for a wide number of reasons. I didn't particularly want to take anyone's side in that discussion and I didn't want to expend the effort of hashing out my own ideas as distinct from those espoused by the loudest voices in the room. So I thought I'd get into this one early, before the shouting starts, and get a word in edge-wise while I still can.
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Old 31 January 2016, 05:48 AM
omegazord omegazord is offline
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebochan View Post
I have a sneaking suspicion certain snopesters will be conveniently silent in this thread, as it might create some very uncomfortable shades of grey.

Enjoy the white supremacy in the comments!
Fwiw, the following day saw far right protesters active and violent in the UK. In the thread on the assaults in Cologne the presence of similar attacks elsewhere was used as evidence of a continent-spanning conspiracy and cause to tighten up the borders, deport people etc. Can't really do the same in this case - you can't deport someone from their own country after all - but presumably those same posters would favour a complete domestic travel ban for white males at least until this is all sorted out. Right?
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  #7  
Old 31 January 2016, 06:45 AM
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Yes, "children", like the "15 year old" stabber who helped kick off this recent incident. That's one haggard looking 6 foot tall man, who has no documentation but is 15 because he says so and gets free accommodation. And now can be tried as a child for his murder, based on his word.

These "children" were targeted because of their unchecked crime wave. Vigilantism is not the solution. The solution is for the police to handle the crime. But they're unwilling to do their jobs due to political concerns. And even when they do get caught, the courts sentence them to mere months for brutal rapes, because they're "children", so they're right back on the street doing it again. The system has to prevent this by doing something about the crime rather than devoting all resources to systematically covering it up. Trying to bury the truth for political expediency just stokes anger more when it's discovered, and empowers these far right groups, who are rightly seen as the only ones telling the truth. If the other side would start addressing reality it would take the wind out of the sails of groups like this one.

Quote:
Stockholm police say the capital’s train station is “overrun” with North African youth gangs stealing and “groping girls”.

One unnamed cop told Swedish TV: “They grope girls and slap them in the face when they protest. I would never let my children go to the central station. No officer would.”

Swedish police were slated last week for burying reports of Afghan asylum seekers allegedly molesting and raping young girls. The string of attacks, which included reports of 36 assaults and two rapes, are said to have taken place at the We Are Sthlm music festival for teenagers in 2014 and 2015.

Officers claimed they failed to report the crimes over fears far-Right parties would use the cases to attack migrants.

Stockholm’s main public swimming centre will now be patrolled by uniformed police after at least four under-age girls were reportedly sexually assaulted by young male asylum seekers earlier this month.

Last edited by Errata; 31 January 2016 at 07:14 AM.
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  #8  
Old 31 January 2016, 08:12 AM
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Little Pink Pill Little Pink Pill is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ASL View Post
I didn't particularly want to take anyone's side in that discussion and I didn't want to expend the effort of hashing out my own ideas as distinct from those espoused by the loudest voices in the room.
What are your thoughts on the current crisis (as a whole)? I like to hear soft voices.
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  #9  
Old 31 January 2016, 03:45 PM
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For starters, one aspect that I haven't seen discussed yet is the risk of something like a Syrian diaspora. As much as people are focusing on the risk of terrorist agents or common-criminals using the refugee crisis as a means of infiltrating western nations, I am more concerned that a disproportionate number of those fleeing Syria will be those with the greatest means to flee: people with transferable wealth and, more significantly skills and education, that would be essential to the welfare of a post-war Syria.

For that reason, I am concerned that the refugee crisis is perhaps NOT best handled by permanently accommodating refugees in western Europe and the United States, but rather focusing on caring for refugees closer to the scene. Unfortunately, "closer to the scene" isn't exactly the most welcoming or stable place either, depending on which way you go from Syria, I mean, Iran certainly seems stable enough, but then there's that whole Sunni/Shia-Arab/Persian thing (and lets not even get started on the Kurds: remember, our own NATO ally Turkey spends about as much time bombing the Kurds as it does ISIS it seems)... I don't mean to imply that Europe should be unwelcoming or abusive towards refugees, only that perhaps we're being myopic in focusing on how best to settle refugees in Europe. IMHO, if they settle in Europe without a viable plan to return within a few years (and by extension a viable plan to improve conditions in Syria) then we've already lost. We might as well write Syria off as another failed state and move on, if long-term settlement of refugees in Europe and North America is where we're heading.

But of course I don't think we should write Syria off just yet...

Last edited by ASL; 31 January 2016 at 03:53 PM. Reason: syntax
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  #10  
Old 31 January 2016, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post

These "children" were targeted because of their unchecked crime wave. Vigilantism is not the solution. The solution is for the police to handle the crime. But they're unwilling to do their jobs due to political concerns. And even when they do get caught, the courts sentence them to mere months for brutal rapes, because they're "children", so they're right back on the street doing it again. The system has to prevent this by doing something about the crime rather than devoting all resources to systematically covering it up. Trying to bury the truth for political expediency just stokes anger more when it's discovered, and empowers these far right groups, who are rightly seen as the only ones telling the truth. If the other side would start addressing reality it would take the wind out of the sails of groups like this one.
The article you linked was the first one I read that explained why the vigilantes were targeting the rail road station. I had wondered why there, of all places, would they go if the goal was beating up children.

And yes, I agree with you, the problems are not going to be resolved any time soon if, for whatever reasons, authorities are not prepared to actively address the problems within the migrant community and if the media coverage is slanted in a way that either demonizes the migrants or demonizes anyone who raises legitimate concerns about the criminal behavior of some within that community.

The result of this kind of cover up is pretty foreseeable and is exactly what seems to be happening. It's an outright gift to the far right.
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  #11  
Old 31 January 2016, 05:23 PM
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Yow!

Awesome. Two snopesters using The Sun to justify Neo-Nazis beating people.

I might have more to say later when I'm done picking my jaw up off the floor. Oh, sorry, I mean if the tone police are okay with it.

I mean, I expected silence because I figured this was indefensible. Sorry I thought too highly of my fellow man there.
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  #12  
Old 31 January 2016, 05:34 PM
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Little Pink Pill Little Pink Pill is offline
 
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ASL, you're right, I haven't heard anyone talk about post war Syria. There seems to be an assumption that it is irrecoverable. It may be, but practices like seizing refugee assets almost guarantees it. The focus has definitely been on temporary, versus long term, solutions.

I'm glad you shared.


ETA-Robochan, was Sue justifying the attack or trying to figure out what triggered it? Those aren't the same thing. I've never heard her condone any kind of violence or bigotry. As for children, I'm pretty sure from her board history that she doesn't even believe in spanking them, much less letting neo nazi's beat them.

Last edited by Little Pink Pill; 31 January 2016 at 05:50 PM.
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  #13  
Old 31 January 2016, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
These "children" were targeted because of their unchecked crime wave.
No. They were targeted because they happen to look somewhat like people who have committed crimes.

And "unchecked"? Seriously? You are claiming that the police are doing nothing whatsoever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
And yes, I agree with you, the problems are not going to be resolved any time soon if, for whatever reasons, authorities are not prepared to actively address the problems within the migrant community and if the media coverage is slanted in a way that either demonizes the migrants or demonizes anyone who raises legitimate concerns about the criminal behavior of some within that community.

The result of this kind of cover up is pretty foreseeable and is exactly what seems to be happening. It's an outright gift to the far right.
What cover up? We're talking about some of the most highly publicized events of the year.

And conflating beating up random migrants with raising legitimate concerns is not helpful.



-- ASL, that's an interesting perspective, and good points. Thank you for posting it.
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  #14  
Old 31 January 2016, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebochan View Post
Awesome. Two snopesters using The Sun to justify Neo-Nazis beating people.
We're not reading the same thread, apparently. But given your initial post here, it seems what you want is a fight, so it looks like you're picking one. If people are silent, it is more likely because this posting style is needlessly incendiary, not because they harbor silent wishes for vigilante violence against all non-whites in Europe.
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  #15  
Old 31 January 2016, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post


ETA-Robochan, was Sue justifying the attack or trying to figure out what triggered it? Those aren't the same thing. I've never heard her condone any kind of violence or bigotry. As for children, I'm pretty sure from her board history that she doesn't even believe in spanking them, much less letting neo nazi's beat them.
It's always easier to argue with someone if you distort what they say. Sadly this is what's happening off the board too whenever anyone tries to voice concern over the criminal element within the migrant community they are lumped in with the far right. It's not doing anyone any favours, least of all the majority of migrants who are going to suffer most from the behavior of both the vigilantes and the criminals in their midst.
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  #16  
Old 31 January 2016, 09:05 PM
Troberg Troberg is offline
 
 
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This is a really scary development. We currently have a nazi party in the parliament, with 13% of the votes, and instead of fighting them, the other parties try to win back the votes by accommodating them.

This incident is new, but there have been arson attacks at about 40 shelters for refugees, and the police is more or less just shrugging.

While there has been some crimes committed by the refugees, they are actually about 1/4 of the crime rate of other groups in similar situations, yet these nazi bastards has actually managed to get people to believe that the refugees are a problem. Heck, when the recent knife attack occured, it was the other kids at the shelter who disarmed the attacker, subdued him and held him down until the police arrived. So, one bad guy (most likely traumatized by war) and a bunch of heroes.

To be quite honest, I don't understand what has happened. Just a decade ago, such levels of racism would have been completely unthinkable, and now, they go mostly unopposed. Not a single politician are arguing that laws against racist hate speech should be used against these nazis. No one suggest that the attacks on shelter or these group attacks should be classified as the terrorism they are. Not a single one suggests legalizing armed resistance against the nazis. How can the politicians be so effing clueless about history and so focused on theit own gain that they rather give nazis power than relinquishing any of their own?

This is bad, and I don't know what to do about it, given that no one seems to understand that even the original nazis didn't start with gas chambers and invading Poland.
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  #17  
Old 31 January 2016, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rebochan View Post
I might have more to say later when I'm done picking my jaw up off the floor.
Can you look for mine while you're down there? I think it may have lost a few teeth.

Basically Errata's post is exactly the complaint I have heard from older people in the US explaining the rise of the Klan. According to them, the north didn't do enough to protect southern whites from "roving bands" of blacks after emancipation. (ETA - as EQ Taft just posted in the KKK thread simultaneously) I don't know enough about the specific history in Germany but I can only imagine the same excuses are made for the brownshirts and every other instance of the rise of racism and fascism.

The correct response to terrorism - especially racist neofascist terrorism - is that it's wrong and needs to be stopped. Not, "Well, it's the authorities' fault that people got this angry" at the victims. And, yes, Sue, any other response really is likely to be seen as justifying. That's what the people who want to justify these things say.
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  #18  
Old 31 January 2016, 11:17 PM
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And, yes, Sue, any other response really is likely to be seen as justifying. That's what the people who want to justify these things say.
Asking why isn't endorsement. Why is a very good question to ask in this situation in fact. Sweden has one of the most progressive societies in the world, so this behavior didn't just spring up out of some long-standing history of racism.

This isn't some flaw that only exist in the western world, as the Dafur crisis tragically illustrates. Unfortunately I'm writing this up to plain old human nature. A sudden addition of a large refugee population puts stress on the social fabric of a community. And some people will lash out when they feel threatened. Of course this is not an excuse and they should still be prosecuted. But at the risk of being pessimistic, these kinds of attacks are almost inevitable in these situations.

Edit: As for The Sun; Simply rejecting an argument because of its source is the height of fallacy. Nobody is obligated to believe their conclusions, but their respective biases are pretty much up front. Obviously, one can weigh the merits of arguments at least in part by the general tendencies of the operations that produce them, but that certainly doesn't prove them false.

Nor, when they cite actual objective facts, does the source make the facts themselves magically turn false because one doesn't like them.

Last edited by Coughdrops; 31 January 2016 at 11:27 PM.
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  #19  
Old 31 January 2016, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Sweden has one of the most progressive societies in the world, so this behavior didn't just spring up out of some long-standing history of racism.
Seriously?

Where in the world do you get your information? Of course Sweden has long-standing issues with racism, particularly against those who are Roma, Jewish, black, or Muslim.
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Old 31 January 2016, 11:45 PM
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Yes, St. Alia. I would let our Swedish members fill in the details but there is a long history of neo-nazism.

Basically these are opportunistic racist terrorists hoping for exactly this type of reaction. Finally they can do all the horrific things they've always wanted to do and hope the worst reaction will be "well, that's what happens when refugees do bad things".

ETA - Asking why, for example, doesn't include calling an act of pure terrorism "vigilantism".

Last edited by ganzfeld; 31 January 2016 at 11:50 PM.
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