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#21
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For what it's worth, the dictionaries I consulted (the first several that came up on Google, as well as a large unabridged dictionary I have easy access to) have as a primary definition of "slave" that the person is held as chattel. Other definitions are figurative uses (like being a slave to drugs, or one's boss's slave) and only the unabridged dictionary included a definition referencing servitude. That definition included all in a condition of servitude, and gave the synonym "servant," so it was not about indentured servitude specifically.
I am not bringing this up to prove what "slave" ought to mean, but to show that there likely is something to the author's contention that, without some modifier at least, chattel slavery is what is meant by "slave" for most people. |
#22
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I think the distinction is helpful and appropriate when discussing American colonial and US history.
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#23
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The big claims here should not get drawn into a debate about what constitutes slavery. The Irish were never systematically treated as another race, period. Indentured servitude was not limited to the Irish (or white people as another version of these memes claims). Indentured servitude is not chattel slavery - being different in every aspect: scope, severity, violence, duration, legal status, racial motivation, long-term effects, etc, etc.
More recently, and, to my mind one of the more obnoxious false claims, is the assertion that whites or Irish took all kinds of abuse "without rioting or complaining". That is a giant load of steaming history horsespit. Riots and protests have been quite common and rather violent throughout US history and until the middle of last century nearly all of them were whites (because in those rare cases when blacks did do it, they were quite often executed for it). The idea that black people in Ferguson and Baltimore invented rioting is an audacious and racist lie. What we really need to teach in black history month is the actual history refutes these racist lies. I don't know if they're any more common than they were 40 years ago but they're popping up more and more frequently in social media. Some of this is white supremacists slyly and deliberately attempting to deny history. People who don't know any better (and, many who really should) are unwitting reposting this spit without knowing (or, perhaps just as often not really caring) that they are part of this deliberate effort that is exactly akin to the whole Birth of a Nation era movements. Last edited by ganzfeld; 05 March 2016 at 12:25 AM. |
#24
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http://www.virtualjamestown.org/servlaws.html#1 Found this awhile back when this argument popped up somewhere else.
http://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibit...systems--europ I mainly posted this because I found the pictures of the primary documents interesting. http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/.../text5read.htm Contains some first person accounts. |
#25
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It's important to remember as well that during the historical period at issue, even free servants were treated, or could be treated, in an appalling manner. So just reciting the conditions for indentured servants sounds horrible, but in context, while still horrible, many are the same as for free servants. For example, in England, (I'm still looking for US sources, but they will likely be very similar) it was legal until sometime in the 19th century to beat servants for correction. Servants who left their place of employment without permission for even a short time could be punished or charged with a crime. Leaving an employer altogether before one's contract of employment was up was a crime--punishable by imprisonment at hard labor.
No one should rely on my shaky historical research here, but rather on the actual historians who have reached conclusions based on their research. For me, though, it helped to know the context a bit--to know some of the things they might be considering. |
#26
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Brian |
#27
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This thread prompted me to be more curious about what is or is not "slavery", not necessarily relating to any American context or Irish heritage. As I stated earlier, much of my interest stems from what I saw in the Nepali Far-Western Terai in the late 1990's.
BONDED LABOUR Quote:
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Halia and Kamaiya Children’s Life-worlds Quote:
THE KAMAIYA SYSTEM OF BONDED LABOUR IN NEPAL Quote:
ETA: I don't have much point to this post. The previous discussion piqued my curiosity. The best I can tell is that the indentured servants in America during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries would not be considered slaves under any current definition. African and African-American people held as chattel during the same time period would be considered slaves under most any definition. Kamaiya bonded labor as practiced in Nepal is considered slavery by many modern anti-slavery organizations, but that use of the word is not universally accepted. Last edited by crescent; 07 March 2016 at 08:29 PM. |
#28
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I definitely see a point.
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is correct. Just as the enslavement currently conducted by Islamic State (Daesh) you cited is slavery and the slavery of the ancient Greco-Roman world was slavery. However, the OP only refers to chattel slavery as it was practiced in the Americas because it's the only form that is relevant to this racist meme created by white supremacists, who are trying to do two things: 1) erase the horrors of chattel slavery and 2) use the erasure from history to silence people who speak up about discrimination. The OP is important because of this Quote:
And for the US:
However, if non racists can learn how racists this meme is, know its racists origins, and know its racist intent (the purpose of the OP) they'll (hopefully) stop spreading it. Brian |
#29
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Although much of the oppression the Irish suffered was based on anti-Catholicism, the Irish were considered a different race, at least by racists.
![]() As you can see, the Irish were racially classified with Hispanics, and I understand Trump wants to build a wall in Ireland, too. |
#30
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No, I cannot see. Nor can I see the provenance of the gif I cannot see. Please elaborate on what you are showing and where it came from.
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#31
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Material Modernism:The politics of the page the picture posted is here. The caption mentions it is from Ireland from one or two neglected points of view, 1899 but I do not know yet where it may have originally come from.
http://glc.yale.edu/day-we-celebrate-cartoon Nast often depicted some Irish that way but this article mentions that it wasn't all Irish but certain groups of Irish that he did(which leaves me no closer to an answer then before) http://www.printmag.com/illustration/nast-irish/ This is the article that I found the other links posted fromhttp://www.racismreview.com/blog/201...-of-whiteness/ I'm a fan of old editorial cartoons and what not so found this article interesting for 2 reasons. https://thesocietypages.org/socimage...-of-the-irish/ the first the reprints and the second her comment at the end. Quote:
Last edited by firefighter_raven; 09 March 2016 at 03:42 PM. |
#32
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That some people compared them is no indication that there was any systematic racism. That they were different in every aspect (legally, socially, etc.) was the reason these comparisons were made in cartoons - with the intent to be shocking. There had already been at least two presidents of Irish descent even before emancipation. Irish wasn't part of any real racist concept at all. Except in cartoons - which is why it was in the cartoons! It was intended to be incongruous. There were not laws against marriage. There were not laws against mixing or education. Yes, there was prejudice in many cases but to call that racism is the offense intended by those cartoons, not the reality of life in the US or in Britain for that matter.
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#33
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#34
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Nice find, Horse Chestnut! I've been going through the reviews and most are fine but there is this doozy:
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While not the origin of the myth it looks like it helped it along. Brian |
#35
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In all this discussion about treatment, it would be good to remember one particularly horrifying aspect of chattel slavery as practiced in the Americas, particularly once the trans-Atlantic slave trade had stopped: American slavery included institutionalized rape. We have documentation of slave auctions in which individual slaves commanded a higher price for their value as breeding stock.
No matter how oppressed other ethnic minorities may have been, proponents of that particular meme are either incredibly ignorant as to the realities of the African-American slave experience, or else must possess the biggest proverbial stones on the planet to seriously claim that the Irish and African situations were meaningfully equivalent. |
#36
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http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1965/...m#link2HCH0004 Quote:
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eta- Found a mention of it in The Miscellaneous Works of the Right Honourable Sir James Mackintosh page 281? (hard to see the page numbers) 1846 in reference to the Bloody Assizes (trials held after the failure of the Monmouth Rebellion in 1685 England.) Real nasty piece of work that was. "Lord Sunderland had apprised Jeffreys of the King's pleasure to bestow a thousand convicts on several courtiers, and one hundred on a favourite of the Queen, on these persons finding security that the prisoners should be enslaved for ten years in some West India island:" Sir James mentions in a footnote that he had access to many of the original records of this circuit and an account written by Lord Lonsdale written in 1688 but I am unable to determine if the above quote is from Sir James or from another source. I might try to see if the Lord Lonsdale account or others he mentioned still exist somewhere later on. Last edited by firefighter_raven; 10 March 2016 at 05:01 PM. |
#37
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My apologies. I just realized that I forgot to include this link in my last reply
The miscellaneous works of the Right Honourable Sir James Mackintosh |
#38
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http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...092722167.html
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#39
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Since when was Barbados considered part of the U.S.? Every reference I've seen so far, in this thread anyway, say the "Irish slaves" were used in the Caribbean. That's a long way from the cotton fields and mansions of Georgia.
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#40
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I would guess that someone saw an article about the use of Irish indentured servants in "the Americas" meaning N and S America and the Caribbean and took that to mean the US.
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