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  #21  
Old 11 December 2018, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
A jury on Tuesday recommended life in prison plus 419 years for James Alex Fields Jr., convicted of killing Heather Heyer when he plowed his car into a group of counterprotesters last year at a "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.
Good. It's what he deserves.
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  #22  
Old 11 December 2018, 07:17 PM
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Agreed. The judge accepted the jury's recommendation, but the formal sentencing will take place later. He also still faces federal hate crime charges.

I would add: aside from my general objections to the death penalty, I'm glad he didn't get it in this case as it might have made him a martyr to his Nazi fans. Plus which, his name would resurface in the news periodically for years or decades to come as appeals worked their way through the system. Now he's more likely to simply fade into obscurity, which I think is better.
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  #23  
Old 11 December 2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
Actually, a very large percentage of murder charges do result in a guilty plea to a homicide charge
Something I learned today! Thanks for info, GenYus.

Are they pleading guilty to premeditated murder, though, or to a lesser homicide charge? I couldn't quickly figure that out from the cite.



Also I agree with crocoduck_hunter and E. Q. Taft about the sentence.
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  #24  
Old 11 December 2018, 08:54 PM
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AFAIK, it doesn't break it down into that specific. I'd guess a mix of the two. There would be reasons to plead to premeditated murder such as the state not seeking the death penalty or seeking a lesser term (IE, the state asks for 50 years with parole vs life without parole).
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  #25  
Old 11 December 2018, 09:21 PM
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Sometimes people even plead guilty with no bargain on charges or sentence, in the hopes of persuading the judge to give a lesser sentence. Taking responsibility and sparing victims and families can sometimes have an influence.
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  #26  
Old 12 December 2018, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Q. Taft View Post
his name would resurface in the news periodically for years or decades to come as appeals worked their way through the system. Now he's more likely to simply fade into obscurity, which I think is better.
That assumes he doesn't appeal this sentence, and that his nasty friends don't try to martyr him despite his survival.

Seaboe
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  #27  
Old 12 December 2018, 02:04 PM
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EQT is not wrong that DP appeals take longer, are more numerous, and Garner more attention than appeals from life sentences though.
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  #28  
Old 12 December 2018, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
That assumes he doesn't appeal this sentence, and that his nasty friends don't try to martyr him despite his survival.
It's also occurred to me that he might face threats in prison from the non-white inmates, though I'm sure the Aryan Brotherhood types will be happy to have him.
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  #29  
Old 14 December 2018, 01:56 AM
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Let’s not forget the true martyr: Heather Heyer. Were it not for her death, I honestly wonder if the media would have continued framing the alt-Right band of NFBSKwads as a bunch of cheeky provacateurs. It turns out they meant all the horrible things they repeatedly say over and over. Who knew.

Rest in Power, Heather Heyer. I know nothing will bring back their daughter, but I hope the ruling brings some comfort to her parents, along with the knowledge that their daughter died fighting for a good cause.
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  #30  
Old 29 December 2018, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mouse View Post


Rest in Power, Heather Heyer. I know nothing will bring back their daughter, but I hope the ruling brings some comfort to her parents, along with the knowledge that their daughter died fighting for a good cause.
She died because she was simply in the way of a moving vehicle. She is not a martyr by any sense of the word.
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  #31  
Old 29 December 2018, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
mar·tyr
/ˈmärdər/
noun
1. a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.
Reads like she's a martyr to me...
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  #32  
Old 29 December 2018, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Thebobo View Post
She died because she was simply in the way of a moving vehicle. She is not a martyr by any sense of the word.
A moving vehicle whose operator was deliberately trying to hit people. You make it sound like she jaywalked across a busy interstate.
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  #33  
Old 29 December 2018, 03:18 PM
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She wasn't out there by coincidence. She was out there for a cause.

He didn't run into her by accident. He ran into her because he supported the opposing cause.

From either of those viewpoints, she died for the cause. Dying for a cause doesn't automatically make the cause right, of course (though Heyer was on the right side of that one); but it does meet the definition of 'martyr'.
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  #34  
Old 29 December 2018, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
From either of those viewpoints, she died for the cause. Dying for a cause doesn't automatically make the cause right, of course (though Heyer was on the right side of that one); but it does meet the definition of 'martyr'.
I find that definition of 'martyr' to be overly broad.

Did she believe in her cause so much she would die for it? That would be martyrdom.

Being supportive of a cause and being killed by someone opposed to that cause is not martyrdom. We don't have 50 000 American martyrs of the Vietnam war. We don't have martyrs of the abortion clinic bombings. We have war dead. We have victims to terror.

By the same broad defnition, we could say that Timothy McVeigh became a martyr for his cause when he was executed, or the woman who refused medical treatment for her cancer so she could have her homeopath treat her became a martyr when she died. They both believed in their causes and died as a result.

Ms Hellyer did not put herself out to die in support of the cause. She was killed while supporting that cause. To me that makes a distinct difference in martyrdom. If she went to the rally that day willing to die over a statue coming down, then indeed, she'd be a martyr. I doubt she did.

The tragedy of her killing is not diminished by whether we call her a martyr or not. I just think that affixing that label does little to push the discourse forward and diminishes those people who were willing to put their lives on the line to support their cause (Martin Luther King Jr is the first one I think of). Also, if we start calling anyone who dies for a cause a martyr, then that term becomes as useful as hero, terrorist or dysfunctional as a descriptor.
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  #35  
Old 30 December 2018, 12:50 AM
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No one has ever claimed vets 'believed' in the cause of the war nor that those killed in acts of terror were there because they believed in the cause of the place. So they already wouldn't fit the definition given. The others who would supposedly be rejected may indeed be martyrs to some.

None of the examples you gave is really relevant because you didn't seem to bother finding out whether your (so far arbitrary) definition fit her. Your total argument about that crucial fact is "I doubt [it]."

Finally you give a kind of slippery slope argument for why the dictionary definition is too broad. I think you're about seventeen centuries late to try to rein in the definition. The word has always been applied based on highly various circumstances (including some other than those discussed) and nearly always by others who are supporters of the cause in question. No matter the definition, as one example, I'm pretty sure any one of us would object to saying "Sebastian wasn't a martyr in any sense of the word. He just happened to be in the way of a bunch of arrows and cudgels." In the accounts, he hadn't made any declaration of a willingness to die. He had concealed his faith. "Was he willing to die for the cause before they shot him full of arrows? I doubt it." Well, OK, that opinion is noted.
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  #36  
Old 30 December 2018, 04:57 AM
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UEL, your definition of martyr seems to be that one must deliberately seek out death for the cause as opposed to one who happens to die for the cause. I think that being killed for the cause is adequate even if one really does not want to die.
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  #37  
Old 30 December 2018, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
A moving vehicle whose operator was deliberately trying to hit people. You make it sound like she jaywalked across a busy interstate.
I am not convinced (despite what a jury concluded) that it was deliberate. He was chased down by thugs like him and he panicked. He could have taken out a lot more if he wanted to.
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  #38  
Old 30 December 2018, 02:56 PM
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What’s your evidence for that claim? Specifically the chaser down by thugs and panicked part?
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  #39  
Old 30 December 2018, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Thebobo View Post
I am not convinced (despite what a jury concluded) that it was deliberate. He was chased down by thugs like him and he panicked. He could have taken out a lot more if he wanted to.
This is truly fake news. Or perhaps an out and out lie.
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  #40  
Old 30 December 2018, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
UEL, your definition of martyr seems to be that one must deliberately seek out death for the cause as opposed to one who happens to die for the cause. I think that being killed for the cause is adequate even if one really does not want to die.
I did not aim for deliberately seeking death. But being willing to die for the cause.

Solely being killed for the cause it too general. But that is my opinion.
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