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  #121  
Old 10 December 2015, 06:07 PM
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I also disagree with his way to handle it. I don't think it is generally the police who 'resolve' these situations. The average cop doesn't usually have the training or experience. Its the SWAT team who must respond to these situations which can add to the response time.

ETA: I don't disagree with "run, hide or fight if they have no other choice." I disagree with being armed just in case it should happen.
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  #122  
Old 10 December 2015, 06:07 PM
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I stand corrected. I disagree with one portion of his recommendation.
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  #123  
Old 10 December 2015, 06:10 PM
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The last thing I would like to see is a bunch of people with guns in an active shooter situation trying to shoot back, and the police having to try and figure out which people have evil intentions and which ones think they are saving the day.

There's a reason I don't even want to leave my house anymore.
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  #124  
Old 10 December 2015, 06:43 PM
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Not to mention all the idiots with guns who see all the other idiots with guns, before the police arrive, and assuming that they are the only 'good guy with a gun' and all the others are bad guys. Of course, every other "good guy with a gun" will likewise think all the others are the bad guys... and then there are all the people stuck in the middle who have no idea what's going on, only that lots and lots of people just suddenly started shooting...

Then the cops can come in and pick up the bodies and hopefully one of them will really be the original bad guy... is that how this is supposed to work?

Last edited by TallGeekyGirl; 10 December 2015 at 06:56 PM.
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  #125  
Old 10 December 2015, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicgeek View Post
One other particularly irksome bit of cognitive dissonance: "Most gun deaths aren't even from mass shootings! In fact, a huge number of them are suicides!" And your point is? Should we not be trying to reduce gang violence, domestic violence, robbery-related deaths, suicides, etc., as well?
Indeed. I wish the conversation could be about all the other gun deaths that don't make national headlines but account for the vast majority of gun deaths. Then maybe we could talk about accidental (or rather negligent) discharges that result in death of innocent bystanders or the shooter themselves, for instance. We could talk about how having a gun in the home can turn a terrible beating that at least leaves the victim alive with a chance to press charges and maybe recover rather than dead from a gunshot wound.

We could even talk about how hard it is to accurately discharge a firearm when under duress and, as a side benefit, perhaps come to a deeper understanding of how/why police so often seem to get it so very wrong and how we could hardly expect your average citizen to do any better.

But that won't happen for as many reasons as there are people.
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  #126  
Old 10 December 2015, 11:30 PM
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What ASL said. I am particularly disturbed by the numbers of children who manage to get hold of a gun and shoot themselves or other children.
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  #127  
Old 11 December 2015, 12:37 AM
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Default American Muslims are Raising $1,000 an Hour for San Bernardino

Responding to “evil with good”

Hundreds of Muslim-Americans have raised more than $150,000 for the families of the victims killed in the San Bernardino shooting, hoping to respond to “evil with good.”

Donations have been pouring in to an online fundraising page called “Muslims United for San Bernardino,” organizers said. The LaunchGood page was created Dec. 3 to ease the financial burden on grieving families after a married Muslim couple gunned down 14 people and injured 21 others in California last week.

http://time.com/4143416/san-bernardi...p-fundraising/
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  #128  
Old 11 December 2015, 07:11 AM
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double post

Last edited by Dark Blue; 11 December 2015 at 07:18 AM.
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  #129  
Old 11 December 2015, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
I don't think it is generally the police who 'resolve' these situations. The average cop doesn't usually have the training or experience. Its the SWAT team who must respond to these situations which can add to the response time.
I quite disagree with you there. For years departments across the country have been training and equipping their patrol officers to respond to these situations exactly because SWAT may have a significant response time. The nation model is front line patrol guys do not wait for SWAT to respond before taking action against an active shooter situation.

As far as citizens arming themselves, my answer is the same as its always been. If you choose to exercise the right to carry a gun you then take on the responsibility to possess it safely, to training with it extensively and to thoroughly educate yourself regarding its use.

I carry everywhere. I don't think the mass chaos to ensue that some here are suggesting is very likely but the risk of mistaken identity is real, and a risk that one must take on if they choose to act in a stressful situation.
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  #130  
Old 11 December 2015, 12:52 PM
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Example of a near miss
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  #131  
Old 11 December 2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TallGeekyGirl View Post
Not to mention all the idiots with guns who see all the other idiots with guns, before the police arrive, and assuming that they are the only 'good guy with a gun' and all the others are bad guys. Of course, every other "good guy with a gun" will likewise think all the others are the bad guys... and then there are all the people stuck in the middle who have no idea what's going on, only that lots and lots of people just suddenly started shooting...

Then the cops can come in and pick up the bodies and hopefully one of them will really be the original bad guy... is that how this is supposed to work?
An example of your scenario occurred at the Giffords shooting, except of course, that the "good guy with the gun" made sure of the situation and found out the guy holding the gun was also a good guy, who had wrestled the gun from and subdued the actual shooter (whom I am not naming to not give him publicity). As Dark Blue recommends, the guy practicing concealed carry practiced and had thought through the possibilities and made sure what was going on rather than coming in blazing. And that is just what I expect of concealed carry types, but then I am probably projecting in that expectation just as much as you are projecting in your expectation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderwoman View Post
What ASL said. I am particularly disturbed by the numbers of children who manage to get hold of a gun and shoot themselves or other children.
Do you have numbers on that? And not just the 'minors shooting minors' numbers, which are usually over 90% gang members in a fire fight, execution, or on-going feud. And we should leave out minors who are killed while robbing or burglarizing. It should be essentially innocents on both sides, I should think, for the image of "children who shoot themselves or other children." I remember we had the report here of the child who fired on the girl through the window or door. And I remember a few other mentions, though not the details. Each one is tragic, of course, but you refer to the numbers, and I don't think I have seen numbers that did not inflate the totals with those who had chosen to live a violent life in one way or another.

Last edited by A Turtle Named Mack; 11 December 2015 at 01:48 PM.
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  #132  
Old 11 December 2015, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
For a long time I've questioned the wisdom of having County Sheriff be an elected position.
That's because your sheriff wasn't Clarence Dupnik. He was the sheriff for Pima County who called SB1070 crap.
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  #133  
Old 11 December 2015, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Do you have numbers on that?
How about 31 toddlers shot themselves with a found gun this year (another 13 toddlers shot someone else)?
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  #134  
Old 11 December 2015, 02:23 PM
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Thanks, GenYus. Clearly there are people who do not handle/store their guns well. The first example in the article clearly is of that sort. The gun should have been actually holstered and worn by an adult, in the glove compartment, or otherwise out of small hands' curious grasp.
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  #135  
Old 11 December 2015, 06:54 PM
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I just read that there are more guns in America than people, 40 million more, and output by gun makers has doubled in the last few years. The response to mass shootings seems to be people buying more guns.

With those numbers, the number of toddlers getting ahold of guns is a very small percent, but obviously any percentage is too high.
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  #136  
Old 11 December 2015, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Do you have numbers on that? And not just the 'minors shooting minors' numbers, which are usually over 90% gang members in a fire fight, execution, or on-going feud. And we should leave out minors who are killed while robbing or burglarizing. It should be essentially innocents on both sides, I should think, for the image of "children who shoot themselves or other children." I remember we had the report here of the child who fired on the girl through the window or door. And I remember a few other mentions, though not the details. Each one is tragic, of course, but you refer to the numbers, and I don't think I have seen numbers that did not inflate the totals with those who had chosen to live a violent life in one way or another.
http://everytownresearch.org/reports/innocents_lost/

I realize that I have a heightened awareness of this because of the work I do, but I have to say I am amazed when people are unaware of issues like this one, when the information is out there for anyone to read.
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  #137  
Old 11 December 2015, 07:55 PM
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Two random thoughts on this whole episode.

1. The guns appear to have been legally obtained and, near as I can tell, it was legal to give them to the shooters.

2. The "third shooter" is going to keep conspiracy nuts busy for a long time.
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  #138  
Old 11 December 2015, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy101_again View Post
1. The guns appear to have been legally obtained and, near as I can tell, it was legal to give them to the shooters.
Maybe not - I have been seeing articles that say the initial purchaser may have bought them for the couple to help keep them off the radar, knowing full well they intended to use them for violent jihad. Purchases on behalf of others when you know a crime is intended is a felony.
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  #139  
Old 11 December 2015, 09:28 PM
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I believe the point was that the guns were bought from a legal vendor, not that the guns were bought without intent to commit a crime.
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  #140  
Old 11 December 2015, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
I believe the point was that the guns were bought from a legal vendor, not that the guns were bought without intent to commit a crime.
I did not read it that way because of the second half of what was said "it was legal to give them to the shooters" - Nuh-uh, not if you know the people you are buying them for intend to commit crimes.
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