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  #101  
Old 01 December 2015, 09:21 PM
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Kool-Aid as a racist stereotype is not a new thing.

Last edited by Beachlife!; 01 December 2015 at 09:35 PM.
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  #102  
Old 01 December 2015, 09:25 PM
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I think the timeline of public associations was more like racist stereotype, then cult member, and then back to racist stereotype.

Though "Did you drink the Kool-Aid?" and "Do you drink Kool-Aid?" are actually two different questions, and the first one is usually referring to cultish behavior.
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  #103  
Old 01 December 2015, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I had no idea that Kool-Aid consumption was a racist stereotype. I can't see the video, but could the comment be made in a way that implies Jonestown more than Race? Other than ads for the product itself, nearly every reference I see to Kool-Aid is a reference to Jonestown or Jonestown style cult-like acceptance of crazy leaders and insane dogma.
Like watermelon, waffles, fried chicken, and collard greens, it's a stereotype of the diet of Southern African Americans as a result of poverty.
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  #104  
Old 01 December 2015, 09:37 PM
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I don't think it is a stereotype of just Southern African Americans. All of those items are used as stereotypes in the North too.
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  #105  
Old 01 December 2015, 09:40 PM
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Can any of you find cites that show original usage as being racist? When you establish the etymology of something, the most accurate reference is the first recorded use.

Every academic and early use I can find is in reference to Jonestown, like the last book* I linked earlier, or this paper by UCSD.

It's clearly being used racially as well, but now my academic curiosity is piqued.

*ETA I think. I'm having trouble making out all the words on my iPad, it's not loading right, but it looks like it says the first recorded use of the phrase was in reference to cultish behavior.

Last edited by Little Pink Pill; 01 December 2015 at 09:51 PM.
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  #106  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:04 PM
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You know, it really wasn't my intention to hijack the thread.
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  #107  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryda Wong, EBfCo. View Post
I want to see the "moderate pro-lifers" come out in force and in person to both help silence the raving ones and to support the patients coming into our health centers. I want to see them doing something to stem this tide of violence. I want to see them standing up in opposition to the political attempts to restrict women's choices. I want to see them doing something at this juncture.
That's the thing, "moderate pro-lifers" are like Bigfoot. Lots of people think they exist, some even say they've seen one, but nobody can ever provide proof that they exist.
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  #108  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:10 PM
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I disagree. Most pro-lifers I know I'd describe as moderate, if by moderate you mean they aren't picketing clinics or hospitals and they aren't calling abortion murder. I've had many conversations over the years with family members and friends who oppose abortion and they manage to be compassionate and respectful. The problem, of course, is it's the screamers who get the attention not the majority of people who go about their own lives without feeling the need to spout off on their beliefs at every opportunity.
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  #109  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
*ETA I think. I'm having trouble making out all the words on my iPad, it's not loading right, but it looks like it says the first recorded use of the phrase was in reference to cultish behavior.
But I don't think it's a specific phrase about Kool-Aid that's racist. It's just an association of race and the drink that grows over time, so it probably wouldn't be a matter for etymologists. The phrase "Did you drink the Kool-Aid?" to ask about cultish behavior should be easy enough to pinpoint once you find it. A question about a black person making Kool-Aid isn't necessarily racist, so it would be hard to pinpoint the first use of it in a racist way, even if you somehow had access to all past mentions of Kool-Aid.

At least, I think so. Unless people have tracked down the first use of jokes about fried chicken or watermelon.
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  #110  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
I disagree. Most pro-lifers I know I'd describe as moderate, if by moderate you mean they aren't picketing clinics or hospitals and they aren't calling abortion murder.
Most of the pro-lifers I know actually vote pro-choice. It's hard to get more moderate than that.
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  #111  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Coughdrops View Post
Just go read the comments on any article that is even remotely related to Planned Parenthood or abortion. Or try to argue with such a person through the comments. I did, back when I still thought I could change the minds of people like that.
Comments on the internet are the dregs of humanity. You can't seriously get a sense of the views of any group by focusing on comments on the internet.

This seems to confirm my suspicions that you've never actually spoken to a pro-life person.

But whether you have or haven't, you're interacting with the people you say don't exist ("moderate" pro-life people) right here in this thread.
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  #112  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:28 PM
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Reconsidered Waffles.
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  #113  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post

I've been trying to think how to phrase this followup question so that it comes out right; but possibly not having much luck. Here it is anyway (and to some extent it's following up on what Mouse said earlier): do you really think you react the same way to the existence of a doctor's office down the street that performs abortions at four weeks after conception as you would to the existence of a doctor's office down the street that kills twenty year olds?
While that is a pretty strange hypothetical question I think I get the jist of your question in that do I react to abortion the same way as I react to the murder of a healthy adult? And to answer that, no. When I was originally asked if I thought it was murder I said short answer-yes. But it is obviously a more difficult issue than that. I think the majority of pro-choice people would still be against the murder of an adult. In most situations we accept that it is wrong on a moral level, as well as against the law. For abortion people have far differing opinions of it. So while I think that at it's base it's murder, I also understand that for my entire lifetime it has been legal and to a large number of people it is not the taking of a life. So no I don't react the same. I don't support violence as a response to it the same way I would support a violent intervention to prevent the murder of an adult.

If tomorrow one of my female friends told me that they were going to have an abortion my feeling wouldn't be anger, just sad that they see that as their best option.

Quote:
So do you think any woman who has an abortion and any doctor providing it is committing murder? Because I don't understand then how you can be a moderate on this issue.
Well I don't oppose abortion in some circumstances, but generally yes, I think they are committing murder. I never described myself as moderate.
Quote:
I really don't think I could calmly say "well that's just my personal opinion" and move on and do nothing.
I get what you are saying but again they are doing something that has been legal my entire lifetime, so while I may be apposed to it, I don't think violently confronting them for seeking a legal medical procedure is the answer.

Truthfully I don't know what the answer is.

Quote:
I want to see the "moderate pro-lifers" come out in force and in person to both help silence the raving ones and to support the patients coming into our health centers. I want to see them doing something to stem this tide of violence. I want to see them standing up in opposition to the political attempts to restrict women's choices. I want to see them doing something at this juncture.
I have and will continue to tell loud obnoxious protesters that they are hurting more than helping in any way, I will condemn violence against those who get abortions and provide them, but beyond that I won't be actively supportive of things that help woment get abortions.

Last edited by Dark Blue; 01 December 2015 at 10:32 PM. Reason: clarify
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  #114  
Old 01 December 2015, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
Most of the pro-lifers I know actually vote pro-choice. It's hard to get more moderate than that.
Good point. It's not an issue here in Canada right now but even our former PM, who is pro-life refused to reopen the abortion debate despite some efforts by backbenchers.
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  #115  
Old 02 December 2015, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blue View Post

I have and will continue to tell loud obnoxious protesters that they are hurting more than helping in any way, I will condemn violence against those who get abortions and provide them, but beyond that I won't be actively supportive of things that help woment get abortions.
Hopefully that means you support comprehensive sex education and making birth control widely available, because those are the things that reduce the abortion rate, not screaming at women in parking lots. Like I keep saying, the fact that so many on the Anti-choice side are opposed to these simple measures proves that it really is about punishing women rather than saving babies.

Again I don't know what I'd do if I ever found myself facing an unplanned pregnancy. Maybe I'd get an abortion, maybe I wouldn't. I honestly don't know. I just know that sometimes in life it comes down to the least-bad solution to a bad problem and I don't think based on my limited knowledge, I should be able to dictate the choices of other women who may be in entirely different circumstances than I am.

For that reason, I'm pro-choice, simply because the other side is so repugnant, I'd be ashamed to be associated with those creeps.
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  #116  
Old 02 December 2015, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
...Like I keep saying, the fact that so many on the Anti-choice side are opposed to these simple measures proves that it really is about punishing women rather than saving babies....
How many is so many?

ETA: What defines someone as anti-choice? Does that include Dark Blue?
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  #117  
Old 02 December 2015, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
At least, I think so. Unless people have tracked down the first use of jokes about fried chicken or watermelon.
People have definitely attempted to trace those origins. The etymology of everything is interesting to someone.

I agree it could be hard to track a racist phrase, and people are (generally) more careful about overt racism today. But the internet makes small trends in colloquial speech much more accessible, so I don't think it's a question that can't be asked. Linguists were already looking at emails between friends for new speech patterns when I was in school, and academics jump on the chance to pick apart something that hasn't yet been picked apart. I was actually surprised I couldn't find it in an etymology dictionary, especially since Forbes named it one if the most annoying business phrases.

Aimee E had a good point about the difference between drinking Kool-Aid and drinking THE Kool-Aid, though, which makes me wonder if those phrases, with different origins, have been mixed in some people's lexicons.

Last edited by Little Pink Pill; 02 December 2015 at 01:13 AM.
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  #118  
Old 02 December 2015, 01:34 AM
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Hijack: I think the phrase "drinking the Kool-Aid" minimizes/mocks/what-have-yous what actually happened at Jonestown, and I wish it weren't used so flippantly. The people at Jonestown did not drink poison like a bunch of lemmings. They downed the stuff with guns to their heads. And enough people were shot that they knew they weren't afraid to use them. So yeah, the people of Jonestown drank poisoned Flavoraid (IIRC about it--Kool-Aid being too pricey or something), but that wasn't mass suicide, it was mass murder.

After I learned more about Jonestown, jokes about "drinking the Kool-Aid" started to feel like jokes about any other mass murder--generally in terrible taste and almost never funny. That's why they call it the Jonestown Massacre.
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  #119  
Old 02 December 2015, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimee Evilpixie View Post
I think the timeline of public associations was more like racist stereotype, then cult member, and then back to racist stereotype.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
Every academic and early use I can find is in reference to Jonestown
I'm afraid this is still the first thing I think of:

The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test

in which "drinking the kool-aid" = "tripping on LSD."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blue View Post
While that is a pretty strange hypothetical question I think I get the jist of your question in that do I react to abortion the same way as I react to the murder of a healthy adult?
Basically, yes, that was what I meant: do you react to the abortion of a four week embryo the same way as you react to the murder of a fully developed human?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blue View Post
I think the majority of pro-choice people would still be against the murder of an adult.
I should hope so. I certainly didn't intend to accuse you of being in favor of the murder of adults.

-- I keep trying to phrase something about the rest of your post; but either I'm not going to get it right enough to do so, or I'm not awake enough to do it right now.
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  #120  
Old 02 December 2015, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Beachlife! View Post
Most of the pro-lifers I know actually vote pro-choice. It's hard to get more moderate than that.
How does that work? If they vote pro-choice doesn't that make them pro-choice? Pro-choice does not mean only people who would abort if it were them facing an unwanted pregnancy. It means that they believe that the decision to abort or not should be something that the pregnant woman gets to CHOOSE, not something that the government forces on them by law.

Plenty of pro-choice people have made the choice to keep an unwanted pregnancy but wouldn't dream of voting to outlaw abortion and deny other women the right to choose for themselves.

That's one of the reasons I hate the term "pro-life;" it's such a weasel word.

When I was in college I took a journalism class where we had to buy the Associated Press' reference book that outlines their standards for unbiased language when reporting, epically on controversial subjects. I don't know if it is still the case but at the time the standard was "ant-abortion" as the preferred term for people/groups who want to outlaw abortion in all/most cases. "Abortion rights" was the preferred term for people/groups who want abortion to be legal in all/most cases regardless of how any individual in that movement might feel about aborting or keeping an unwanted pregnancy were it to happen to them.
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