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  #41  
Old 30 November 2015, 05:50 AM
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I'm one of those pro life people that you all are talking about. Here are my opinions. I think abortion kills a person. I am not happy if my taxes go toward paying for abortions. I think what the shooter did in this instance was horrible, and is an act of terrorism by any definition. I would never condone his actions of committing violence because of his views on abortion. There is no defense or validity to what he has done. I don't want to punish girls for having sex. (about the most idiotic claim) I am not against birth control or sex education.

Had I responded to this call I would have done everything in my capabilities to protect the people inside that building from that terrorist.

It is possible to believe that an abortion is wrong, and also believe that violence against those that perform them is wrong.
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  #42  
Old 30 November 2015, 05:54 AM
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From what I can tell based on conservative stances on abortion, contraception, education, poverty relief, and executions, all life is sacred up until the moment it's born. After that it only matters if it's white, male, and rich.

Edit: this was in reply to Mouse and is in no way directed specifically at Dark Blue.
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  #43  
Old 30 November 2015, 12:17 PM
Singing in the Drizzle Singing in the Drizzle is offline
 
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While I am pro life and pro take responsibility for your actions, that goes both for the mother and father. my have a desire to stay out of other peoples beliefs and choices is much stronger. So my pro life stand end at the threshold of my house it is pro choice out side the home. Part of this do to asking myself where can a clear line be drawing dividing where between child having rights or not that almost every one will be on the "yes they have rights" side. Some will say earlier but almost none will say later and that is birth. So out side my home that is the line I fight for and encourage people in a polite way to do otherwise.

As for terrorist or anyone that take life to be heard or to make political changes. As far as I'm concerned they have noting to say that should be heard. They lost the right when they killed even if I might have agreed with them.
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  #44  
Old 30 November 2015, 01:28 PM
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A Turtle Named Mack A Turtle Named Mack is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
From what I can tell based on conservative stances on abortion, contraception, education, poverty relief, and executions, all life is sacred up until the moment it's born. After that it only matters if it's white, male, and rich.

Edit: this was in reply to Mouse and is in no way directed specifically at Dark Blue.
Obviously you have only listened to the perverse caricatures of conservative thought as expressed by the left.
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  #45  
Old 30 November 2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blue View Post
I am not happy if my taxes go toward paying for abortions.
They don't. That's been illegal for many years.

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Had I responded to this call I would have done everything in my capabilities to protect the people inside that building from that terrorist.
It's been reported that the officer killed in the Planned Parenthood opposed abortion.
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  #46  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:11 PM
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I am against the taking of life. This means I am against both murder and the death penalty. So am I against abortion? Depends. in the Catholic Church and in general, most people did not consider the fetus to have life until it stirred in the womb. Just now, I looked up the spelling of "fetus" in the dictionary on my desk. It defined "fetus" as
Quote:
in humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week to the moment of birth.
Some societies allegedly have defined infants as not being "alive" until age 1 or so. Please note I am not an anthropologists so I can not say what or who these societies are or were, only that I recall reading this in the past.

So am I against abortion then? Yes if it means putting the infant out in the wild to die because the infant was female. I think all agree in that case. Yes if it means the termination of the pregnancy at such a time as the fetus could easily survive a Cesarean birth. But no if it is the termination of a pregnancy to save a woman's life due to a tubal pregnancy although that is called an abortion. And no if it is a completely under any circumstances a non-viable fetus although that is also defined as an abortion. So there are gray areas.

As a side note, the Catholic Church now defines life as beginning at conception. This was clearly stated in the sermon during Mass yesterday. Yet the Catholic Church and the Christian right continue to be against forms of birth control that prevent conception.
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  #47  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:11 PM
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Dark Blue, do you think that abortion is murder in the same sense that killing a person who has been born is murder?

If so, do you think this applies at all stages of pregnancy?
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  #48  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:16 PM
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Another anomaly in the pro-life/pro choice debate is the death penalty. The pro-life people proclaim life is sacred yet, in general, are in favor of the death penalty. The anti-death penalty people proclaim life is sacred and we should not commit murder yet, in general, are pro-choice.
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  #49  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:21 PM
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That is far from the only reason for opposing the death penalty. I don't even think it's the reason that the majority of death penalty opponents would give. My own reasons for opposing it are pretty much in alignment with those expressed in this ACLU post.
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  #50  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
They don't. That's been illegal for many years.
In fairness, though, it is publicly funded on the state level in 17 states.

From the ACLU:

https://www.aclu.org/public-funding-abortion

In Massachusetts, for example, it's implied in the state constitution.

Thanks.

Bill
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  #51  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:30 PM
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I stand corrected.
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  #52  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
That is far from the only reason for opposing the death penalty. I don't even think it's the reason that the majority of death penalty opponents would give. My own reasons for opposing it are pretty much in alignment with those expressed in this ACLU post.
We are not in disagreement. Down within the document you linked to is this
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Because life is precious and death irrevocable, murder is abhorrent, and a policy of state-authorized killings is immoral.
I believe it is a statement by the ACLU and not just included as a quote from another entity.
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  #53  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:36 PM
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My point was that there is more than one reason.
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  #54  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:39 PM
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I wouldn't say I am pro-life. When I was younger I would definatly have said so. But I have moved to the left as I have gotten older (think you are supposed to go the other way ) So while I am not happy about abortion, for a viable fetus, I understand life is not simple and it is the woman's choice. While I am female I have never had to make that decision and don't honestly know what it would have been since I have known from an early age that I don't want children.


So basically while it makes me uncomfortable I think it should be available and not overtly difficult to get.

I am anti-death penalty
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  #55  
Old 30 November 2015, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blue View Post
I don't want to punish girls for having sex. (about the most idiotic claim) I am not against birth control or sex education.
Then you are not one of the pro-life people that is being discussed. And regarding the claim that some want to punish girls for having sex, I give you Rick Santorum:

"One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is the dangers of contraception in this country…. Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that's okay, contraception is okay. It's not okay. It's a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be."

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Obviously you have only listened to the perverse caricatures of conservative thought as expressed by the left.
Or listened to the perverse caricatures of conservative thought as expressed by some conservatives.
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  #56  
Old 30 November 2015, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blue View Post
It is possible to believe that an abortion is wrong, and also believe that violence against those that perform them is wrong.
If you believe you are in a minority on this issue that speaks far more to the words and actions of the Conservative right wing in your country than anything else. My parents are Catholics and follow the Church's stance on abortion but that doesn't mean they believe anyone performing or in any way facilitating abortions are terrible people or that violence against them should be in anyway condoned.
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  #57  
Old 30 November 2015, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardM View Post
Another anomaly in the pro-life/pro choice debate is the death penalty. The pro-life people proclaim life is sacred yet, in general, are in favor of the death penalty. The anti-death penalty people proclaim life is sacred and we should not commit murder yet, in general, are pro-choice.
The death penalty position tends to cut across the usual political line-ups (as does abortion to a lesser extent). There are quite a number of pro-lifers who oppose the death penalty, and vice versa. Dennis Prager, who is a generally-conservative talk show host and a rabbi, opposes abortion and favors the death penalty. He considers the death penalty properly applied (be very sure about the facts and only apply in heinous cases) as an expression of respect for life. His point is that a person who disdains life sufficiently to commit a particularly heinous murder(s) must pay with his/her life. I am not sure if the point is to ensure the murderer can never murder again, to serve as an example, or simply because a person who has done such horrible things must as a matter of morality be removed from the living. Maybe a combination of these. Anyway, he is a thoughtful and genteel man who respects life greatly and finds the death penalty appropriate (expressed only through application of legal processes, not vigilantism or the like) as an expression of respect for life. BTW, his 'Prager University' is comprised of a large number of educational lectures by well-educated scholars and practitioners on a wide variety of topics, similar in many ways to TED talks, which are well worth listening to, even if you do not agree with the viewpoints of the lecturers.
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  #58  
Old 30 November 2015, 03:18 PM
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A Turtle Named Mack A Turtle Named Mack is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue View Post
If you believe you are in a minority on this issue that speaks far more to the words and actions of the Conservative right wing in your country than anything else. My parents are Catholics and follow the Church's stance on abortion but that doesn't mean they believe anyone performing or in any way facilitating abortions are terrible people or that violence against them should be in anyway condoned.
DB's position is in NO WAY a minority position amongst conservatives or pro-lifers. Those who advocate violence against either abortionists or abortion clinics are a very, very small fringe rejected by the great majority of those who oppose abortion.*

*Most, indeed nearly all, who 'oppose abortion' would agree it should be done when the mother's life is truly threatened, although the substantiality of the threat to the mother's life is recognized as an occasionally-difficult issue.
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  #59  
Old 30 November 2015, 03:20 PM
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If it's not a minority position, and I agree with you that it isn't, then people holding that position should be speaking out loud and clear not trying to make excuses for this man and acting like PP is the enemy.

I used to get really annoyed when people would say things like "if we expect every Muslim to apologize for ISIS we need to expect every Christian to apologize for McVeigh" but when issues like this come forward I can see better where they're coming from.
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  #60  
Old 30 November 2015, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
My point was that there is more than one reason.
I agree. (But should argue the point so that there are enough characters so this will be a valid posting.)
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