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  #101  
Old 23 February 2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ChasFink View Post
Yeah. This is something the "arm the teachers" crowd really can't grasp: what we really should be trying to do is avoid having people get shot, including mentally disturbed teens who want to shoot up their schools.
Also, arming the teacher only works if the person armed is willing to walk into harm's way. The armed guard, whose job it was to do so* (not a secondary part of his job, but the his actual job) did not.


*I don't know if he was told "as an armed guard, if there's a shoot out, you have to respond" or not, but I think that being an ARMED guard would lead one to believe that's the purpose of your job, preventing harm/violence...
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  #102  
Old 23 February 2018, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Alarm View Post
Also, arming the teacher only works if the person armed is willing to walk into harm's way.
It really is like the arming the teachers crowd have never read any accounts of what most school shootings are actually like. Too busy praying about it I guess . Anyway very few times is it a case of a teen suddenly standing up in the middle of a classroom and whipping their gun out of a backpack. In most situations by the time that armed teacher (you know the marine turned teacher that Trump will ensure every school has on staff) arrives on the scene the shooter has already picked off most of their victims.
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  #103  
Old 23 February 2018, 06:44 PM
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The cynical side of me thinks that if any tragedy similar to Parkland ever affected someone who supported the NRA, they probably still wouldn't give a damn about it. But then, the lack of anything tangible regarding gun control / mental health after every. single. one. of these mass shootings has left me jaded beyond belief.

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Originally Posted by mbravo View Post
I wonder if anything would change if a (NRA supporting) congressperson's child or grandchild died. I don't wish it because I'd just rather no more kids die from this absurd phenomenon, but I wonder statistically if/when it will happen, would it make even a touch of difference, or would it just cement the beliefs they already have.
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  #104  
Old 23 February 2018, 06:47 PM
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I say to them, do it! Do it, and damn the consequences! The safety and security of these students is far, far more important than the school's unhealthy pre-occupation with teh gunz.

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Originally Posted by Esprise Me View Post
Schools threaten to punish students who walk out over gun control

I hope those kids do it anyway. They probably will. I'm pretty sure today's high schoolers are morally superior to my generation at that age. And if that 3-day suspension is more than they'd get for cutting class for non-political reasons, I hope they enlist the ACLU or similar to bring down some First-Amendment hellfire on that Texas superintendent.
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  #105  
Old 23 February 2018, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mochrie99 View Post
I say to them, do it! Do it, and damn the consequences! The safety and security of these students is far, far more important than the school's unhealthy pre-occupation with teh gunz.
With the great, media ready quote, "My life is|Our lives are more important then a suspension!" Plus is just gives you three days or whatever to apply to the movement.
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  #106  
Old 23 February 2018, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alarm View Post
Also, arming the teacher only works if the person armed is willing to walk into harm's way. The armed guard, whose job it was to do so* (not a secondary part of his job, but the his actual job) did not.
Isn't it a bit insulting to law enforcement and military members to essentially suggest that their entire profession can easily be reduced to and mastered as a side hobby by members of another profession? (Not that you are saying this, but folks suggesting teachers should easily take on this new role as armed guards)
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  #107  
Old 23 February 2018, 08:04 PM
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  #108  
Old 23 February 2018, 10:05 PM
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I have several issues with the "arm the teacher" thinking:

1. before the army puts me in harm's way, I have to do extensive training and testing before I leave Canada. Once in theatre, I have to shoot again to test equipment, then there is continuation training that goes on. All told, my last tour to Afghanistan, I shot 3 times before leaving Canada and twice overseas. With both my rifle and pistol. I put down probably 450 rounds downrange in all those events (guessing). To maintain proficiency, there is a requirement to do continuation training. How are they going to ensure that teachers maintain their skillsets.

2. weapons training is expensive. Who is going to pay and what is going to be cut in order to do it. Betsy DeVos will not cut funding to private schools to do so, you know that. So, it will be the public school students who have fewer resources to be educated.

3. teachers are human. They will have their good days and bad days. When I was growing up I saw a teacher in a physical confrontation with a student (was the school bully who tried to bully a teacher). If the teacher was armed, I'm certain that one or the other would have been shot. Further, given the chaos that exists in all schools with teenagers trying to exert their personalities, throwing weapons into the mix is a recipe for a dozen more deaths per year.

4. in the event of an active shooter, what is the teacher supposed to do? Leave their students and go on a hunt and destroy mission? Every teacher I know would stick with their class and ensure their safety. Even if the shooter came to that classroom, the low velocity power and limited capacity of a handgun is no match for the high velocity and capacity of an AR-15.

5. just today, it was in the news where a teacher practicing concealed carry left their weapon in a washroom and it was found by a student. Allowing a bunch more weapons in the classroom will allow a lot more of these type events happen.

6. and this is a poor attempt at a bandaid solution. It solves nothing, increases risk, and does not address the underlying issues surrounding accessibility of weapons, mental health and the culture of the gun in the US.

I am not a fan of the solution. Hiring police and security is a better idea, but still does not solve the underpinning problems.
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  #109  
Old 24 February 2018, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by UEL View Post
I am not a fan of the solution.
I'd been going to say this at the beginning of your post, but I'm glad I read to the end. You know a hell of a lot more about these situations than I do, and I'm also not a fan of the solution (I really want to use scare quotes there, but have resisted). It seems to me that nobody sane* is a fan of this supposed solution. Certainly very few people outside the USA are a fan of it.

But all of us seem to be trying to understand the current US thinking. It would be wrong to say that it's not "US thinking", because (for those of you in the USA) your President is saying it, and he represents you on an international level. He's also expressed some of these views far more clearly than I remember any other President having done in the past. I don't understand why he's expressing opinions such as arming teachers as though they're a serious proposition - from my ignorant foreign perspective without much experience of guns, that seems obviously to be completely and utterly wrong. I'm glad that people like UEL - with more experience of guns - also seem to think the same thing.

I'm still trying to understand whether the people putting forward these views actually believe them, or if they're just being incredibly cynical. In the case of Trump himself, I think he's just repeating something he's been told, and has no understanding or opinion on the matter one way or another, but who knows? In other cases, I still don't get how people can argue this without even acknowledging the far more obvious approaches.

Unless they're even more scared of the obvious approaches than they are of the current situation. I don't understand how that can be, though. What are the people who argue against gun control in the USA scared of? I still see some on Facebook, but not here lately I don't think. I'm bad at remembering user names compared to real names. (As an outside observer, this to me looks like a turning point, which is good.) But I am genuinely interested in arguments - rather than memes - from the "other" side. If anybody is still here, how are you still defending this?

* I apologise for invoking "sanity" (damn, succumbed to the scare quotes) in the context of this conversation.

Last edited by Richard W; 24 February 2018 at 01:00 AM. Reason: Changed "solutions" to "approaches" at the end of paragraph 3+; this isn't a maths / chemistry problem and has no "solution".
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  #110  
Old 24 February 2018, 01:27 AM
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They're being incredibly cynical.
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  #111  
Old 24 February 2018, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alarm View Post
Also, arming the teacher only works if the person armed is willing to walk into harm's way. The armed guard, whose job it was to do so* (not a secondary part of his job, but the his actual job) did not.


*I don't know if he was told "as an armed guard, if there's a shoot out, you have to respond" or not, but I think that being an ARMED guard would lead one to believe that's the purpose of your job, preventing harm/violence...
No you see, according to Trump, teacher would do it because they would care more about the students, being teachers, then an armed guard does.

Some would some wouldn't and on some days I am guessing many teachers would say "Shoot the little nfbsk, I am not risking my life for them. Especially that one, shoot that one first" (only half joking)

Dasla, not a teacher but has worked at a school and 5 of my relatives are or were teachers (give or take).
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  #112  
Old 24 February 2018, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
(As an outside observer, this to me looks like a turning point, which is good.)
I really hope so, but if Sandy Hook led to NOTHING but more gun purchases, I am not sure this will lead to a real change. If a bunch of dead kindergarten and first graders didn't matter, why would a bunch of high schoolers?
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  #113  
Old 24 February 2018, 02:33 AM
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Businesses are actually distancing themselves from the NRA this time. Given the statement from its spokesperson about how the media "loves crying white mothers" followed by doubling down when asked if that was overboard, I get the feeling that it's finally crossed a line that people are actually angry about.
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  #114  
Old 24 February 2018, 03:17 AM
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Richard W, it may be the POTUS' thinking, and it may be the thinking of some in the USA, but it's not as near as I can tell the majority opinion.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...hooting-422736

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...d-high-n849686

I'm not the best spokesperson, but the reasons I've most commonly seen given for the Second Amendment are, one, that a government that disarms its citizens leaves the citizens no recourse against a tyrannical or even murderous government; and, two, that as it takes police time to get to the scene people may need to defend themselves against murderous criminals.

One major problem I see with the first is that, while it may be partially historically accurate, the government is no longer armed with single shot muzzleloaders and cannons that have to be hauled around by horses. The armament the government can now bring to bear is so massive that it's both utterly implausible and entirely unsafe to arm the general populace with anything similar.

One major problem I see with the second is that the number of people who, overall, wind up getting killed seems to go up with the number of firearms, not down; partly because of accidents, partly because of impulse suicides, partly because many of the people who have the guns don't use them properly and either shoot when/who they didn't need to or get the guns taken away from them by somebody who does have ill intent.

And the major problem I see with both of them is that neither of those seems to me any argument to let people get and keep firearms without proper training and without passing some sort of certification showing that they know how to handle a gun properly and that, at least in a calm situation, they can hit what they're aiming at instead of the side of somebody else's barn. Not to mention that neither of them seems any reason to allow guns to people who've been convicted of violent crimes, have restraining orders against them, etc.

-- I'm leaving hunting weapons out of the first part of the argument because I think that, in many parts of the country, many people do have genuine use for hunting weapons and furthermore need to be able to keep them at home and be able to carry them outdoors. Any livestock farmer in coyote country (and coyote country is now pretty much the whole continent), or where there are loose untrained dogs, may have a sudden emergency need for a gun. But that farmer also needs to know how to use the thing; so that's not an argument against regulation, any more than the need of rural people in the USA for cars is a reason not to require drivers' licenses.
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  #115  
Old 24 February 2018, 04:27 AM
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It's annoying how people are willing to blame the massacre in Florida on anything but the elephant in the room. All right, I'm game!

It's not that God has been taken out of the schools. It is not that prayer has been banned. It is not because immigration is diluting the "real Americans". It is not the welfare that is given to the poor. It is not that the pledge of Allegiance has been removed from daily recitation. It is not the breakdown of the family that does this.

I have noted that school shootings went up when typewriters were removed from school.

Bring back the typewriter, and your problems are solved. Graph coming tomorrow to demonstrate prevalence of typewriters and increase in mass shootings across America.
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  #116  
Old 24 February 2018, 01:05 PM
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Instead of rushing in, several Broward sheriff’s deputies waited outside Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School while a killer gunned down schoolchildren, according to other officers on the scene.

The Sheriff’s Office is investigating the claims from Coral Springs cops, Sheriff Scott Israel told the South Florida Sun Sentinel on Friday.

The allegations emerged a day after another deputy, assigned to guard the school, resigned under fire, also for failing to enter the building during the shooting.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...223-story.html
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  #117  
Old 24 February 2018, 02:18 PM
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UEL, don't give them ideas. I'm sure some are already blaming the Internet.
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  #118  
Old 24 February 2018, 02:21 PM
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You realize arming teachers is going to lead to black students getting shot by their teacher, right?
Quote:
We’ll be telling teachers to shoot armed terrorists breaching the school. What’s really going to happen is an unarmed black truant loitering in a hallway he’s not supposed to be in who gets shot eight times by the jumpy choir director.
Oh, she’ll feel just awful about her mistake. But a jury of her peers will never convict her of a crime.
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  #119  
Old 24 February 2018, 11:51 PM
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Roll eyes In wake of school shooting, Trump raised common concern about violent video games

In a meeting with state leaders discussing gun violence this week, President Trump reintroduced another concern about what may inspire school shootings. "I'm hearing more and more people say the level of violence on video games is really shaping young people's thoughts," he said Thursday at the White House.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida...t-video-games/
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  #120  
Old 25 February 2018, 12:53 AM
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Next he'll be blaming that new devil's music, rock 'n roll, right?
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