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Old 09 December 2017, 12:16 AM
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Icon215 Pope Francis Suggests Changing The Words To The 'Lord's Prayer'

PPope Francis isn't pleased with the words to the Lord's Prayer specifically, the part about temptation.

In English and similarly in Italian, the prayer asks God to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." But, says Francis, it's not the Lord that tempts.

"It is not He that pushes me into temptation and then sees how I fall," Francis said in Italian. "A father does not do this. A father quickly helps those who are provoked into Satan's temptation."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...-lord-s-prayer

Last edited by E. Q. Taft; 09 December 2017 at 12:21 AM. Reason: More in-depth story
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Old 09 December 2017, 12:33 AM
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http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/job/1.html
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Old 09 December 2017, 02:39 AM
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Next thing you know, the Pope will come out against the KJV.

Which is my way of saying I don't know why most Christians care what the Pope has to say about he lord's prayer.
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Old 09 December 2017, 03:03 AM
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Aside from the fact that most of the Christians in the world are Roman Catholic? Who knows.
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Old 09 December 2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ganzfeld View Post
Aside from the fact that most of the Christians in the world are Roman Catholic? Who knows.
It's not just the Roman Catholic version that uses "lead". Lutherans and Presbyterians do also and probably a number of other Christian groups.
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Old 09 December 2017, 10:15 AM
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I was responding to ASL's question about why "most Christians" would care what the Pope says. (Which, in case that's also what you're answering: I don't think your response really answers the question. Just because they say a similar version doesn't mean they would be interested in what he says about it.)
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Old 09 December 2017, 02:53 PM
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I should have clarified "within the United States, which makes up the bulk of NPR's reading/listening audience."

ETA: it's part of a LTTAM trend I see where members of Protestant denominations which must surely consider the Pope a blasphemer (what with his claiming to be god's rep on Earth and capable of speaking with the force of god's will to, say, name them all heretics) give credence to what the Pope says as if it should matter to them. We're not talking a stance on something that matters here, like birth control, we're talking a strictly "spiritual" matter.

Last edited by ASL; 09 December 2017 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 09 December 2017, 04:07 PM
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I suspect that to believers spiritual issues matter. (And wasn't the exact wording of the Lord's Prayer one of the issues the Crusades were fought over?)

-- I'm outside that tradition entirely, and not a believer. But it seems to me that if we posit an omnipotent God who created humans, then that God created humans in a form in which humans are subject to temptation; and, being omnipotent, could have done otherwise. So I would say that yes, the God of the Book leads humans into temptation.
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Old 09 December 2017, 04:20 PM
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The Crusades were wars between Christians and Muslims, so no, I don't think so.
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Old 09 December 2017, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I suspect that to believers spiritual issues matter. (And wasn't the exact wording of the Lord's Prayer one of the issues the Crusades were fought over?)
But why would a Protestant (who knew what/who they were protesting) care about the Pope's latest pronouncement on the nature of god? I guess that's for them, really: they can believe what they want, and be interested in what they want, whether it makes sense or not. I mean, look at me: an atheist all bent out of shape at what Protestants might think about what the Pope might say...
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The Crusades were wars between Christians and Muslims, so no, I don't think so.
Crusades upper case and pluralized, perhaps, but there were plenty of crusades against heretics throughout the middle ages. The Albigensian Crusade, for instance.

And let's not forget the part of the Crusades where the crusaders shifted their crusade to sack Constantinople (before it was even a center for Islam!).
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Old 09 December 2017, 04:45 PM
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(And wasn't the exact wording of the Lord's Prayer one of the issues the Crusades were fought over?)
You might be thinking of the wording of the Nicene Creed which helped lead to the East-West schism in Christianity.
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Old 09 December 2017, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
The Crusades were wars between Christians and Muslims, so no, I don't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL View Post
Crusades upper case and pluralized, perhaps, but there were plenty of crusades against heretics throughout the middle ages. The Albigensian Crusade, for instance.

And let's not forget the part of the Crusades where the crusaders shifted their crusade to sack Constantinople (before it was even a center for Islam!).
I have a wonderful series of books about all the Crusades. Essentially, a Crusade was a Holy See sanctioned military action against a perceived heresy or heretical region. So, while the most famous Crusades (the 2nd being the big one), there were many Crusades that were launched against other Christian regions.

I will dig through the books (they are as dry reading as the recent US tax reform bill) and find out about the Crusades launched from present day Italy into France and vice versa.
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Old 09 December 2017, 07:09 PM
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You might be thinking of the wording of the Nicene Creed[/URL] which helped lead to the East-West schism in Christianity.
I was thinking of something about the trespasses/debts wording; but I can't find it now.

Maybe UEL can find it; or maybe I'm just remembering it wrong.
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Old 09 December 2017, 08:02 PM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%2...Fifth_Petition

I had heard of it. But, it is more of a Reformation issue.

I learned this as a Liturgical vs non-Liturgical church issue (essentially, what English translation the church uses).
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Old 09 December 2017, 11:54 PM
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I was thinking of something about the trespasses/debts wording; but I can't find it now.
I laughed out loud when I was walking past the parking lot of a small Lutheran center downtown. A sign there read, "We forgive those who trespass -- however, your car will still be towed."
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Old 10 December 2017, 12:09 AM
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I should have clarified "within the United States, which makes up the bulk of NPR's reading/listening audience."
I don't think you're really making your point well. I mean, by that token, why should NPR or any news organization in the US do a story about Hanukkah or Kwanza when "most people" don't celebrate those holidays.
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Old 10 December 2017, 03:39 AM
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Next thing you know, the Pope will come out against the KJV.
Wouldn't the Pope be more likely to come out against the Douay-Rheims translation? The King James Version was more for Protestants than Catholics.

Fishslap because I'm probably the only person pedantic enough to care about some detail that small and meaningless.
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Old 10 December 2017, 03:48 AM
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That was kind of my point: he's already implicitly (heck maybe even explicitly) out against the KJV. The whole Protestant vs. Catholic thing ought to make the Pope's opinion moot (to anyone but Catholics) on a wide range of faith-related matters to include which translation of the bible to use and how to recite the lord's prayer. It irks me to see the Pope treated as a multi-denominational Christian spokesperson. He's not. He's very much speaking for one and only one (albeit the largest) flavor of Christianity.
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Old 10 December 2017, 10:32 AM
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It irks me to see the Pope treated as a multi-denominational Christian spokesperson. He's not. He's very much speaking for one and only one (albeit the largest) flavor of Christianity.
The Pope js not the spokesperson for all Christians. However, when he does speak, others listen. (sorry )

If the Catholic church does change, I would expect other churches, who use the same wording, to also study the implications and maybe even make a change, but not necessarily the same one.

I expect to see (if I went and searched) articles from other Christian leaders in the coming days/months/years reacting to the Pope's statement.
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Old 10 December 2017, 11:53 AM
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It's not my place to say but I don't think the Catholic Church is implicitly or explicitly against any translation of the Bible that was done in good faith, as it were. The church uses certain versions in its vernacular masses but I don't think it claims (or has for a long time claimed) that its vernacular versions are somehow better than others.
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It irks me to see the Pope treated as a multi-denominational Christian spokesperson.
Who did that?
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