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  #41  
Old 08 November 2017, 02:12 PM
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I think the idea of extending the standard of proof to everyone is a bit ridiculous, because every individual's experience are different.

For example, Asia Argento. She accused Harvey Weinstein. Is she supposed to keep acting as if she thinks he's innocent?

I recently found out the answer to a little mystery. I was wondering why Anthony Bourdain kept tweeting about Asia Argento and Weinstein. I was puzzled by how engaged he was with this. I found out he and Asia are a couple. Is he also supposed to act as though he thinks Weinstein is innocent?

What about the production assistant on House of Cards mentioned in the article I posted in the Spacey thread a while back?

Why would you extend the presumption of innocence (outside the courts) to someone when there have been 8, 10, 12, 30, 60 people accusing them of the same criminal act? When there are now news articles about the methods these people use to squash actions against them, complete with documentary proof? (Black Cube anyone?)

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  #42  
Old 08 November 2017, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crocoduck_hunter View Post
This sounds like #notallmen2
No tall men? That's just discriminatory.
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  #43  
Old 08 November 2017, 03:54 PM
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I thought the response to revelation about Spacey was quite moderate until he stepped in it with his apology. Then more accusations came out and it seemed sufficient to believe he was guilty.
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  #44  
Old 08 November 2017, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alarm View Post
Why would you extend the presumption of innocence (outside the courts) to someone when there have been 8, 10, 12, 30, 60 people accusing them of the same criminal act? When there are now news articles about the methods these people use to squash actions against them, complete with documentary proof?
If you are referring to the piece E. Q. Taft linked to, it appears to have been written before any additional accusations came out.
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  #45  
Old 08 November 2017, 04:42 PM
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I don't see any way that the view expressed in that article is intended to be tempered by the number of accusations.

It referred to the "hysteria" of the Weinstein "scandal," and if anything, the author seems to suggest that when there are many accusations, there is even more reason to stick to the "civilized" principle he advocates. I would go find the relevant quotes, but I really don't want to provide any traffic to that author or article.

People should give thought to whether any particular accusation is likely to be true or if there are reasons to think it is fabricated. But many people will form an opinion about the likelihood that the accused is someone who engages in particular conduct when many unconnected people make similar allegations that, together, begin to look like a pattern. When there are many plausible, unconnected, and similar allegations, it begins to require something like a conspiracy theory to explain them away.

Last edited by erwins; 08 November 2017 at 04:52 PM.
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  #46  
Old 08 November 2017, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
And what exactly about the #metoo movement is narcissistic? I don’t think I understand that characterization at all.
That was one of the lines that raised my hackles about that piece, yeah. I suppose the implication is that women are somehow trying to draw attention to themselves, rather than to show how universal the problem is. And I suppose it's conceivable that there are a tiny number of women out there who exaggerated their experience so as to get sympathy, or not feel left out, or something. But I suspect there are far more women, even now, who either kept quiet or downplayed their own experience, to avoid personal embarrassment or coming across as "anti-man."

There's a sort of point buried somewhere in the essay, but it's made very poorly and there's a lot of much more questionable stuff, to say the least.
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  #47  
Old 08 November 2017, 08:38 PM
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I see, thank you. I didn’t look at it that way because I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who was proud of being a victim of a sexual assault. I understand maybe a twisted motivation in getting in on a court case where you are suing someone and have financial expectations, or getting revenge or salvaging your reputation with a false accusation, but just coming forward and saying, “yeah, me too” doesn’t seem very emotionally satisfying, even for the nefarious.
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  #48  
Old 09 November 2017, 11:00 AM
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I think the most pertinent part of the 'me too' hashtag isn't the 'me' but the 'too'.

The purpose is to establish unity in numbers, to say 'We are many'. Even saying simply 'I was assaulted' is not narcissistic, but saying 'I'm part of this massive group' is definitely not. Although the hashtag says 'me', the whole point is that aligns the tweeter with an 'us'.

ETA: A better example of narcissism would be the response from British Journalist/plague rat in a woman costume Katie Hopkins, who claimed that people saying #metoo should just 'man up' and stand alone. Some people have an incessant desire to tear other people down in order to stay relevant, like a child stamping its foot and screaming 'look at me!' when the grown ups are busy talking.

The need place oneself in opposition to whatever is happening nowadays - particularly when it's something uplifting or progressive - also smacks of narcissism. It's a basic need to stand out and be seen as special.

Last edited by Blatherskite; 09 November 2017 at 11:14 AM.
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  #49  
Old 13 November 2017, 11:48 PM
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George Takei has now been accused as well.

It doesn't match with anything I know about him, but I guess you could say that about other accused men as well. I really hope it's false, but at the same time false accusations are the last thing real victims need.

I don't wish fewer people were speaking up. I guess I just wish the perpetrators hadn't done the things to begin with. It feels like a really depressing game of musical chairs with the near daily reveal of a new Hollywood abuser.
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  #50  
Old 14 November 2017, 12:03 AM
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mbravo,

I love George Takei as well.

However, he's made some comments on Howard Stern a few years back that are rather damning.

I'm going to believe the victim on this until something changes.

khisanth
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  #51  
Old 14 November 2017, 12:17 AM
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Apparently some folks on social media are taking this accusation as an opportunity to say "See? If even Takei did it, we should stop accusing people and victims should just get over these things."

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  #52  
Old 14 November 2017, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khisanth View Post
However, he's made some comments on Howard Stern a few years back that are rather damning.
The comments were actually more recent, from just a few weeks ago.

He seems to classify assault as something that only happens when there is a power imbalance, but he admits to forcefully grabbing people who are “skittish” or “afraid.”

No George. Sexual assault is when one person doesn’t consent, and you do it anyway.
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  #53  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbravo View Post
I don't wish fewer people were speaking up. I guess I just wish the perpetrators hadn't done the things to begin with. It feels like a really depressing game of musical chairs with the near daily reveal of a new Hollywood abuser.
Same.

Some of it, like I said, just has me constantly shaking my head and going, “Seriously?!” Weinstein offered up the excuse that he came of age during the 60s and 70s. While I know the 60s and 70s weren’t the most enlightened when it came to sexual harassment policies, at the same time, I don’t think there was ever an era where it was considered polite to whip out your junk in front of people and jerk off into a potted plant.

Seriously guys, how hard is it to understand that unless you’re at a doctor’s office getting something treated, or you’re in the bedroom of a consenting sexual partner, there’s no reason to whip out your dick in front of people. I’ll be charitable and say that maybe what you do with it, is absolutely amazing, but from an aesthetic purpose, penises are just kind of ugly. No one has ever seen a random dude’s junk and been like, “I must immediately go down on the owner.”
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  #54  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:39 AM
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Default Bill Clinton: A Reckoning

Feminists saved the 42nd president of the United States in the 1990s. They were on the wrong side of history; is it finally time to make things right?

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...crimes/545729/
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  #55  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:47 AM
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How long is it going to take before conservatives can talk about sex without invoking Bill Clinton?
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  #56  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:56 AM
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Probably never. But that doesn’t mean the rest of us shouldn’t talk about it.

The Atlantic is a left leaning magazine so the headline surprised me. I read cautiously and am not entirely sure what to think, but it did make some good points and it seemed like maybe it belonged in this thread, in this current climate.


ETA- Just saw that Bush Senior is back in the news for groping a minor. I’m starting to feel like the Turnip isn’t the only living disgrace to the office.

Last edited by Little Pink Pill; 14 November 2017 at 02:13 AM.
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  #57  
Old 14 November 2017, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Pink Pill View Post
Probably never. But that doesn’t mean the rest of us shouldn’t talk about it.

The Atlantic is a left leaning magazine so the headline surprised me. I read cautiously and am not entirely sure what to think, but it did make some good points and it seemed like maybe it belonged in this thread, in this current climate.

You're not the only one. Croc, that's a pet peeve of mine as well (plus brining up the Kennedys), but the Atlantic article did make some good points, and IMO pointed out a double standard that's been bugging me for a long time.
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  #58  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:24 PM
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Since we came very close to having Bill Clinton living in the white house again, one year ago, I don't know that the topic should be considered entirely dead just yet.
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  #59  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:44 PM
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It's something that the left does probably need to address, yes, but at the same time it's something that happened 20 years ago and there hasn't been anything new added to it since. It's not really comparable to Weinstein or Moore or the rest because there aren't any new accusations. So when it gets brought up it seems more like another attempted deflection from current events than a genuine attempt to address Bill's wrongdoing.

Especially given that the sexual escapades of some of the people responsible for going after Clinton were pretty bad as well and they've been largely ignored.
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  #60  
Old 14 November 2017, 03:52 PM
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If we could talk about Bill Clinton's issues without it taking away from the issues of everyone else, especially conservatives like Moore or O'Reiley, then it might be a conversation worth having. Or if we could have a good, helpful conversation about sexual harassment in general.

But most of the conservatives that would bring it up wouldn't be interested in actually addressing sexual harassment by Bill Clinton or anyone else, they just want to deflect attention away from their own issues. IOW, they aren't bringing this up to begin a conversation about sexual harassment, they are bringing this up to start a conversation about starting a conversation.

Just like they (pretty successfully) deflected the NFL protests against biases in police activities into a conversation about the protesting.

ETA: Or pretty much any issue. It seems all we talk about nowadays is the correct time, method, and means of talking about stuff but we somehow never manage to get to the actual talking about it part.

Last edited by GenYus234; 14 November 2017 at 04:03 PM.
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