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  #1  
Old 18 February 2019, 05:41 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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Default Florida sixth-grader charged with misdemeanour for refusing to stand for pledge

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...=.c25131ced5ff

Nobody is coming out of this one smelling rosy.

Quote:
If living in the United States is “so bad,” why not go to another place to live? Ana Alvarez, who was substituting at the school, asked the student, according to a handwritten statement from her.

“They brought me here,” the boy replied.

Alvarez responded by saying, “Well you can always go back, because I came here from Cuba, and the day I feel I’m not welcome here anymore, I would find another place to live.” She then called the district office because she did not want to keep dealing with the student, according to the statement.
I went to school in America. I also had an excuse to not recite the pledge. I don’t believe I sound like Steve Irwin, but my accent was noticeable (although the constant requests to say “put another shrimp on the barbie” confused me).
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  #2  
Old 18 February 2019, 06:15 AM
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I'm suspicious of the claims about the student's behavior. That sounds a lot like an attempt to pin something on the student in order to cover the school's butt after they did something the ACLU is going to shred them for.
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Old 18 February 2019, 07:13 AM
Jusenkyo no Pikachu Jusenkyo no Pikachu is offline
 
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At a guess, the teacher was goading the student.
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Old 18 February 2019, 01:17 PM
St. Alia St. Alia is offline
 
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This is completely 100% on the substitute teacher and the admin in the building.

The actions of the child could be reported accurately and I can see that happening based on my experience teaching- and I still without hesitation state that all responsibility lies with the adults.

Ignorance of the law and school policy does not excuse harassing a child or escalating a situation. And then to further escalate it with other adults who also insist on devaluing the child and their voice....yeah. Nope. I hope they win their lawsuit and I hope that "teacher" never works in a school again.

Training for substitutes varies and even in places where they have training and require teaching degrees you can get people in classrooms who do things that horrify you as a teacher when you return.

I have had a half dozen people make it to my list of subs who never see my requests...and thank goodness our system allows for that. Technology can be very useful at times.
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  #5  
Old 18 February 2019, 01:31 PM
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Which of these things do you think is more likely to make a child (either the one addressed, or anyone else in the classroom) think well of the USA?


'OK, it's your legal right in the USA to sit this out'

or

'You must stand up for this loyalty oath! We don't care what you think about it, you're not entitled to have that opinion!'


(The first one, of course, has the additional advantage of being true.)
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  #6  
Old 18 February 2019, 02:55 PM
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GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
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I agree with St Alia. It may be that the child's actions were as the substitute and school describe but that is all on the sub and school.

First off, even if "if you don't like it, why don't you leave" was the only option, a 6th grader is likely only 11 or 12 years old and can't leave the country.

Secondly, even if the substitute was not aware that students could not be compelled to say the pledge, the dean certainly should have been. It may be that the sub never told the dean what the initial problem was, but the dean should definitely have gotten the entire story before involving the police (I'm assuming that the "school resource officer" mentioned is an officer.) The dean should have found out that the issue was that the substitute was trying to incorrectly compel the student and informed the sub of that, thereby shutting down the whole issue. There might have been some counseling to the student that such behavior is not permitted even when justified, but nothing more than that.

I'm guessing that all three people involved in the main of the story were behaving immaturely. But one of them has reason for that as he is immature. The other two are adults in jobs that should include the ability to deal with the immature.

ETA: This student has learned what may (very unfortunately) be the most import thing a black man can know: Standing up to authority figures when they are in the wrong will result in severe and unwarranted escalation that comes down on your head.

Last edited by GenYus234; 18 February 2019 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 18 February 2019, 04:34 PM
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Esprise Me Esprise Me is offline
 
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So they have word-for-word quotes of everything the student said except the part where he allegedly made threats?

Sounds to me like his whole rant was just about racism. Even if his opinion was wrong, his actions in expressing it weren't. And this incident tends to make his opinion look right.
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Old 18 February 2019, 05:17 PM
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Even if the sub had been right that reciting the pledge was required, (which is a big thing to be wrong about) it would still be totally inappropriate to argue with the student about, ask why they don't leave, and then advocate them leaving the country. WTH. How would that in any way be an appropriate way to deal with a middle schooler, even if they were breaking a rule.

The teacher turned what would have been a minor issue, easily resolved, in which her error could have been pretty quickly revealed and corrected, into a pretty major traumatic incident in this kid's life.

ETA: I noticed the supposed quotes too, which did not indicate the source. From the rest of the article, I suspect that the quotes are from the same adults that the other info came from, so not unbiased sources, with a skewed perspective, and with a stake in portraying the kid's side as badly as possible.

Also, did he refuse to stand, or just refuse to recite? It might affect how clear cut the answer is, although I think both ought to be allowed.

Last edited by erwins; 18 February 2019 at 05:26 PM.
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  #9  
Old 18 February 2019, 07:01 PM
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GenYus234 GenYus234 is offline
 
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No need to suspect, the article says that the student's statements come from the substitute's and school's statements.
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  #10  
Old 18 February 2019, 09:28 PM
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Morning Morning is offline
 
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Glasses

It is not a recent change that students do not have to recite the pledge, or to stand with a hand over their heart. When I was in elementary school in the 1960s and early 1970s I did not participate in the pledge due to my mother's religion at the time. Usually I just stayed sitting at my desk, but one teacher (3rd grade) preferred that I stand in the hallway.

Nothing happened to me like what happened to this youngster, but then I was a little white girl.


Morning
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  #11  
Old 19 February 2019, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenYus234 View Post
No need to suspect, the article says that the student's statements come from the substitute's and school's statements.
It's possible that I missed it before, but I don't think this statement said what the source was the first time I read it: "The affidavit stated that the student threatened to beat the teacher, but Talbot told Bay News 9 that her son did no such thing."

Other quotes had attribution, but not every one. I specifically noticed that they were stating facts in some places about what the boy did without stating who said so. It looks like it's been edited to add more about the sources of the information since I read it.

It's not recent that students don't have to recite or salute, but I don't think there has been a decision yet about whether all students can be required to stand. I refused to recite in high school, but I was not allowed to remain sitting. (I didn't do anything about it.) There's a case pending I think, about whether standing can be required.

Last edited by erwins; 19 February 2019 at 01:53 AM.
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