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  #21  
Old 05 July 2014, 09:19 PM
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Default First day of ‘guns everywhere’ law in GA sparks convenience store showdown

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On July 1, the state of Georgia enacted the Georgia Safe Carry Protection Act — also known as the “guns everywhere” law — which allows licensed gun-owners to bring their weapons to churches, bars, government buildings and other places where they were previously prohibited.

The Valdosta Daily Times reported Tuesday evening that the new law had already pitted two armed citizens against each other in a standoff at a local convenience store.

“Essentially, it involved one customer with a gun on his hip when a second customer entered with a gun on his hip,” Valdosta Police Chief Brian Childress told the Daily Times.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/0...tore-showdown/
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  #22  
Old 06 July 2014, 04:38 AM
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It seems people in several states have completely lost their minds.

(Makes note not to visit Georgia at any time in near future.)
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  #23  
Old 06 July 2014, 06:17 AM
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Not just Georgia.

At Colo. restaurant, menu comes with armed waitresses:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...guns/11833437/
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  #24  
Old 06 July 2014, 01:39 PM
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I think it goes beyond property rights, or should (although not in Target's case). I rent my home, but I absolutely reserve the right to tell people not to bring a gun into it. Not that anyone who would disrespect that would be likely to be invited into my home anyway.
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  #25  
Old 06 July 2014, 02:08 PM
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Can you ask on-duty police officers to check their guns or not be allowed in? I've often wondered.
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  #26  
Old 06 July 2014, 02:56 PM
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On duty? I doubt it. Off duty, maybe.

I've known at least one cop who never went anywhere without his sidearm; my understanding was that he was required to carry it all times (he was a detective, maybe that was why?). He never made a show of doing so; quite the opposite. I assume he just wouldn't have gone where he couldn't take it.

ETA: The standard Ohio "no concealed carry" signs posted by businesses not allowing it include the phrase "unless otherwise authorized by law," which I assume would include on duty cops at least, maybe off duty too.
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  #27  
Old 06 July 2014, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I rent my home, but I absolutely reserve the right to tell people not to bring a gun into it.
Absolutely. I won't let anyone smoke in my house, I certainly feel that I can tell them they can't bring a gun in either.
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  #28  
Old 06 July 2014, 03:10 PM
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I wonder if these people will ever realize they are actually doing more harm then good with these antics to the pro-gun argument.
I'm more of a moderate on guns with leanings towards better regulations (especially in regards to civilian versions of current military weapons) and these tactics with their supporting arguments do nothing to even slightly sway me to their side.
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  #29  
Old 06 July 2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Avril View Post
When such things are announced, I always take vague comfort in the knowledge that I don't live in an area where people tend to want to take guns to Target and won't respect the request not to do it.
Yeah, I agree with this. I hear, sometimes, people say "Well, New York isn't all that liberal." And by, say, Dutch standards, no, it isn't. But I've lived all over New York State and I've never seen anything like this. I mean, sure, we have conservatives. There are guys who subscribe to an old-boys-club kind of mentality, we have people who support free-market economics, and there were plenty of Romney voters, definitely.

But the kinds of things I hear on this board, and read about in other states? They're like a foreign country to me. A New York Conservative is nothing like a Texas conservative. There's no "open-carry" movement here. If there is anyone walking around with a piece strapped to his belt on a regular basis, I've never seen it. Most people would like at you like you're nuts, and maybe call the cops, if they saw you wandering around Target wearing a gun.

Nobody asks you what church you go to as soon as you meet them. Nobody drops God at random into conversations or starts a theological debate over this quarter's financial returns. In fact, most New Yorkers just leave church talk at church, if they go at all.
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  #30  
Old 06 July 2014, 04:16 PM
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Yes...I was stopped at a gas station in South Carolina a few years ago, re-learning how to pump gas (as it is illegal in New Jersey to pump one's own), when I was approached by an elderly man who gestured to my license plate. This is not shorthand. It literally went like this:

HIM: Are you from this "Garden State"?
ME: Yes.
HIM: Well, where would you even go to church way up there?

Things got more interesting after that...not only do many Southerners live in a foreign land, they consider those who are from "up north" as suspects whose presence is a threat to their desired way of life. There are plenty of Southerners who feel otherwise. But I just haven't ever had the flip side happen in New Jersey or New York, even when I wear a college sweatshirt from my home state (one of the reddest there is), or when a bit of my native dialect slips through.
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  #31  
Old 06 July 2014, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avril View Post
When such things are announced, I always take vague comfort in the knowledge that I don't live in an area where people tend to want to take guns to Target and won't respect the request not to do it.
Open-carry, certainly, and even in the Deep South where I have lived all my live but my undergrad years, I have never seen anyone but cops an armed guards (both when on the job) practice open-carry (hunters going hunting not being the sort of open-carry we are discussing). But I think you woul be surprised at how many people are practicing concealed-carry in a general, unscreened environment. I am sure it is less in NJ than here (I could not find number of NJ permits, which does not encompass all who may be carrying of course) but still, there is a substantial number of people at any given time in most places carrying. For the vast majority of them, of course, they keep the guns discreetly and hope never to pull them in public.

ETA: Finally found some rates for cancealed-carry permits, from page 80 of http://www.gao.gov/assets/600/592552.pdf . The rates are lower than I thought, but then, there are a lot of ineligible populations, such as underage, felons, and others.

Last edited by A Turtle Named Mack; 06 July 2014 at 04:44 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06 July 2014, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amigone201 View Post

But the kinds of things I hear on this board, and read about in other states? They're like a foreign country to me. A New York Conservative is nothing like a Texas conservative. There's no "open-carry" movement here. If there is anyone walking around with a piece strapped to his belt on a regular basis, I've never seen it. Most people would like at you like you're nuts, and maybe call the cops, if they saw you wandering around Target wearing a gun.
I think this must explain why the US I read about here doesn't reflect the US I've personally experienced. Living so close to the border we've visited often over the years and we get some of our "local" US stations from upstate New York. My primary contact with America and Americans has been New York, Vermont and Maine. In no way ever have we encountered the kind of conservatism and religious fervor that some posting here seem to take for granted.
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  #33  
Old 06 July 2014, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I think it goes beyond property rights, or should (although not in Target's case). I rent my home, but I absolutely reserve the right to tell people not to bring a gun into it. Not that anyone who would disrespect that would be likely to be invited into my home anyway.
A bit of a hijack, but as a renter, you still have property rights. You have almost all of the same property rights as an owner. Most relevant to this discussion, you have the right of exclusion, except in very limited circumstances as applied to the owner or the owner's agent. You certainly have the same right to exclude anyone with a gun that a property owner would have.
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  #34  
Old 06 July 2014, 05:16 PM
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And to piggyback off of what erwins said, you generally do have the right to demand on-duty police officers not take guns into your home, in that you have the right to refuse them entry, or condition their entry on something like not bringing their guns in. Unless they have a warrant to arrest you or search your home, or probable cause to believe they will find evidence of criminal activity plus exigent circumstances (e.g. hot pursuit of a fleeing felon, or reasonable belief that someone inside might be in danger) they cannot enter your home without your consent. Of course, no police officer is likely to agree to leave his gun outside while he comes in to talk to you, but that means he'll just have to stay outside.
(ETA: and "your home" here still applies to renters.)
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  #35  
Old 06 July 2014, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
Open-carry, certainly, and even in the Deep South where I have lived all my live but my undergrad years, I have never seen anyone but cops an armed guards (both when on the job) practice open-carry (hunters going hunting not being the sort of open-carry we are discussing). But I think you woul be surprised at how many people are practicing concealed-carry in a general, unscreened environment. I am sure it is less in NJ than here (I could not find number of NJ permits, which does not encompass all who may be carrying of course) but still, there is a substantial number of people at any given time in most places carrying. For the vast majority of them, of course, they keep the guns discreetly and hope never to pull them in public.
And this doesn't really trouble me.

There may be very few people so offended by a request from a store to leave the guns at home that they'd stage a demonstration in the parking lot to intimidate everybody. But such people do exist. The thing is, they don't seem to exist here.

In fact, this sort of people get bent out of shape about laws in New Jersey, that presumably do not have any impact on their lives. Yes, you can get a permit to carry a concealed weapon here--but not without a good reason. "Because I want to" is not a good reason.
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  #36  
Old 06 July 2014, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avril View Post
[
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Turtle Named Mack View Post
But I think you woul be surprised at how many people are practicing concealed-carry in a general, unscreened environment. I am sure it is less in NJ than here (I could not find number of NJ permits, which does not encompass all who may be carrying of course) but still, there is a substantial number of people at any given time in most places carrying. For the vast majority of them, of course, they keep the guns discreetly and hope never to pull them in public.
And this doesn't really trouble me.
It doesn't really trouble me either. Rightly or wrongly, I feel like someone practicing concealed carry, especially so concealed that I never even notice the gun, is probably the kind of person I'd much rather be in possession of a gun than somebody brandishing it like some kind of medal. A person carrying a gun discreetly is probably a lot more confident and secure as a person, and much more qualified to use the gun properly, than one of these open carry nutcases.

Again, I don't know if it's accurate or not. But I feel like a person who has real power doesn't need to shove in everybody's face how much power he has. I never announce on message boards that "X is true because I'm a lawyer," and almost never even reveal that I am one. It's a policy debate, not a pissing match.
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  #37  
Old 06 July 2014, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Amigone201 View Post
A person carrying a gun discreetly is probably a lot more confident and secure as a person, and much more qualified to use the gun properly, than one of these open carry nutcases.
I just had an inside chuckle. When I read this, I could easily replace the idea of guns with Karate, or any other martial arts.

The guys who let everyone know that they are a brown belt in taekwondo are letting everyone know they are a brown belt...in taekwondo. How else are you to know, unless they tell you they are a brown belt in taekwondo?

Unfortunately, as reality sets in, there are some people who are excellent at concealing their weapons who still have little qualification or discretion in its use.
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  #38  
Old 06 July 2014, 08:56 PM
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It horrifies me that you can walk around a store with an assault rifle slung around your torso. There is just no need for that.
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  #39  
Old 06 July 2014, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainie View Post
I think it goes beyond property rights, or should (although not in Target's case). I rent my home, but I absolutely reserve the right to tell people not to bring a gun into it. Not that anyone who would disrespect that would be likely to be invited into my home anyway.
As a renter, you do have property rights as an owner, except where they are trumped by the owner. That is to say that you could probably not deny the owner from bringing a weapon to their own property, though you could demand it be done in a safe manner - they could not simply brandish it carelessly.

This applies to businesses too - many commercial businesses are tenants of a larger property management or holding company and do not own the building or land they occupy. They too reserve the right to refuse entry or service, prohibit firearms or the distribution of literature, and so on, despite not being owners.

The laws which allow the use of deadly force in case of attempted carjacking - do they even care about ownership of the vehicle? I believe that they apply even if the car is legally rented, leased or borrowed - so the concept of "property rights" with respect to protecting property, aren't limited to actual ownership. "Stand your ground" laws apply equally to tenants, owners, and those who do not own their house outright - about two-thirds of homes have mortgages today, and I doubt that it was even a consideration when the law was written.

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Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
Can you ask on-duty police officers to check their guns or not be allowed in? I've often wondered.
Federal law prohibits firearms on mine properties. Signs are posted to that effect, exempting law enforcement. Sometimes the signs say "on duty law enforcement".

Do off-duty police carry their weapon everywhere and in all circumstances? Specifically, do off-duty police officers carry their gun when they go drinking - in a bar, a friend's house, or at a function like, say, a wedding reception? Are they required to maintain a BAC of 0 when carrying their gun, like pilots do when flying?
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  #40  
Old 07 July 2014, 12:45 AM
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If I saw that, I would leave and call the store management and tell them that until they make their store a weapons free environment that I'm taking my money elsewhere. Oh, and I'd call their corporate headquarters if it applied. There is just no reason to carry a freaking assault weapon/semi-automatic/army weapon whatever you want to call it. It's just deranged.
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